Greetings from a new member

by EdenOne 110 Replies latest jw friends

  • Christ Alone
    Christ Alone

    Thanks for the response, Eden. I'll wait til your posting limit goes up before fully engaging you in a discussion about salvation so you will be able to post as many answers and questions as you want in our discussion and not have to worry about posting limits.

    But I did want to comment on a few parts of your response about salvation.

    First, what I agree with. You said: " What I’m persuaded is that there isn’t salvation outside Christ, for the his the “Chief Agent and Savior”, and there is salvation on no one else (Acts 4:12)"

    I totally agree with that! So that is a plus. There are a few "Christian" churches that are teaching differently. Joel Osteen and a few others are saying that Jesus is only one way to God, but there are several. I disagree and believe that the Bible is clear that it is in Jesus ALONE that we are saved. Phil 2:9 says that the name of Jesus is greater than ANY other name. It is only at the name of JESUS that every knee shall bow.

    That being said, I've gotta disagree with you about baptism being an absolute requirement for salvation. This in itself will be a deep discussion, but there are a few specific scriptures that directly comment on what is necessary for salvation. Romans 5:1 shows that we are justified by FAITH. Eph 2:8 says the same, showing that it is gift of God (not something we obtain through any type of works). If we are saved by faith, then we are saved by faith when we believe, not when we get baptized. Otherwise we are not saved by faith. Also, if baptism was absolutely required for salvation, then anyone who receives Christ on his deathbed and believes would not be saved since they were not baptized. This would also mean that Jesus lied when He told the sinner crucified next to Him that he would be in paradise. That man had never been baptized.

    Does that mean that baptism is not necessary? By no means. You mentioned 1 Pet 3:21. It is the only verse that speaks of the baptism that saves. However the key word in this section is the Greek "antitupon" which means "copy", "type", "corresponding to", "a thing that resembles another", "its counterpart", etc. So what does Baptism correspond to? The answer is found in vs 20: "who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. And corresponding to that, baptism now saves you."

    Water did not save Noah. This is why Peter excludes the issue of water baptism being the thing that saves us because he says, "not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God." Peter says that it is not the application of water that saves us but a pledge of the good conscience. Therefore, baptism here most probably represents the breaking away of the old sinful life and entrance into the new life with Christ -- in the same way that the flood waters in Noah's time was the destruction of the sinful way and, once through it, known as entering into the new way. Also, Peter says that the baptism is an appeal of a good conscience before God. Notice that this is dealing with faith. It seems that Peter is defining real baptism as the act of faith.

    Again, I'm not saying that baptism is not necessary and right. But it in itself is not what saves us. It is a demonstration of our salvation. It demonstrates to the world that we have already been saved. Just as good works are a demonstration to the world that we have faith and have been saved.

    Again, this is a deep subject. And I'll reserve a more thorough discussion with you until your posting limit is increased.

  • cofty

    Edenone - Thanks for your reply, good to see you replaced that avatar. I wish everybody would take a minute to do the same.

    As for "the good news of the kingdom" your thinking is very much influenced by the Watchtower. Do a survey of the way the words are used in the NT.

    No disciple of Jesus was preaching anything about a government or anything similar. Do a search on the word kerygma.

  • EdenOne

    To James Woods: I can understand your preplexity with people like me. Like you said, perhaps I need more time. I don't know. For the time being it is what it is. Since I don't see shimmering lights and celestial harps descending from heaven to impart me a personal apocalypse, I can only try to follow the Holy Spirit as reflected through the Bible. Even if that sounds bland for some people, it has been an extraordinary journey for me. One that is still happening.

    To can't leave: I'm glad you don't hold that against me. I know someone else who is perfectly capable of not holding that against you .... ;)

    To Data-DOG: Thank you for the welcome. I know the risks and I try to be careful. But,like everything, it's in God's hands.


  • ABibleStudent

    Eden To AbibleStudent: Thank you for your kind remarks. As for your question, it’s true, the WTS promotes the notion that it’s their way, or no way. But, aren’t most religious groups the same way? After all, if a religious group is persuaded that they are the sole recipient of the “truth”, that they are God’s elected people, the consequence of that line of thinking is that there is no salvation outside the boundaries of such group. The Jehovah’s Witnesses aren’t even original in that advocacy of the monopoly of truth. The problem is upstream. Jesus said: “ Anyone who is not against you is for you”.(Luke 9:50) Paul also said: “Who are you to judge someone else’s [Jesus’] slave? To his own Master, he stands of falls” (Romans 14:4). We should stop being so judgemental about each other. We are but slaves on the household of the Master. And slaves shouldn’t judge each other. The Master does and will do that for sure, when the due time comes. This is true for the leadership of the Watchtower, but it is also true for those who are bitter critics of the Watchtower.

    Hi Eden, I agree with you about how the WTBTS wants JWs to respond to challenges to WTBTS' doctrines, but I really wanted to know how you would respond to my question, " How would you answer a JW who says the Watchtower indoctrinated platitude "Were else would we go?" ".

    As far as justifying WTBTS' doctrines such as actively shunning family and friends, I do not agree with the WTBTS' doctrine, I feel that the WTBTS takes scriptures out of context, and I do not know of any mainstream Christian religion that promotes shunning family and friends who want to leave a religion because they disagree with religious leaders. How can any of the scriptures that you quoted justify a JW shunning a family member or friend, who believes in following Christ but does not want to follow the GB? Is Jesus Christ the Master or is it the GB?

    Have you read any of Steve Hassan's books (i.e., "Combatting Cult Mind Control", "Releasing the Bonds: Empowering People to Think for Themselves", and "Freedom of Mind: Helping Loved Ones to Leave Controlling People, Cults, and Organizations") or visited his website? If you have not read any of Hassan's books and own a Kindle, you can buy the "Freedom of Mind" as an e-book on

    To me the WTBTS appears to be a high-control group just like the Pharisees and Sadducees of Jesus Christ's time and care more about their self-interests than the R&F JW's best interest. The WTBTS' quest for total control of JWs also seems to compell the WTBTS to try to replace Jesus Christ with the GB as the Master of JWs.

    Peace be with you and everyone, who you love,


  • james_woods
    To James Woods: I can understand your preplexity with people like me. Like you said, perhaps I need more time. I don't know. For the time being it is what it is. Sine I don't see shimmering lights and celestial harps descending from heaven to impart me a personal apocalypse, I can only try to follow the Holy Spirit as reflected through the Bible. Even if that sounds bland for some people, it has been an extraordinary journey for me. One that is still happening.

    Well, I don't know of anybody else here who had Gabriel come down and play the harp for them to explain the corruption of the Watchtower Society.

    So, how long has this thought process been going on with you?

    Are you still going out in field service for them and trying to make recruits?

  • EdenOne

    cofty, out of curiosity, did you read the article section that I mentioned ? Because if you did, I find it hard to believe that you think I'm "very much influenced by the Watchtower" in this particular (but crucial) thing of understanding what is the Kingdom. Because the Kingdom being a heavenly government is only one out of the seven things that the Kingdom is.


  • EdenOne

    James Woods, this is going on for me for about one year now. Going out on the field service is right now a bit strange. I do wish to share with others, I love to teach the Bible, but I hesitate in making a disciple out of someone to become a member of the WTS. In that regards I'm a bit divided inside. In any case, I take on the notion that preaching not only saves others, also saves myself, so I take more on that aspect.

    ABibleStudent: I wouldn't say anything except... if one wants to go, he's free to go anywhere. If he finds salvation elsewhere, please come back and let me know. A grown up person will do whatever he wants. Why stop him/her?


  • Balaamsass

    Welcome Eden.

    I knew a number of JWs (some were family) who differed with WTBTS in the 60s and 70s. Great discussions.

    ahhh..they either went "underground" or were disfellowshipped in the 80s for apostacy.

    When the elders come a knocking to ask the 3 big questions.....will you lie and give the "company line" or tell them your honest answer ?

    The honest answer = disfellowshipping without re-instatement unless you recant your heresy.

    In the meantime all the best !!!

  • rebel8

    Best wishes to you

  • EdenOne

    I hope it doesn't get to that point. But like I said before, despite being a calculated risk, it's in God's hands.

    Thank you for the welcomes.


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