by EdenOne 110 Replies latest jw friends
I would ask a question to those who ask me "Why are you still a Jehovah's Witness despite your unorthodox thinking?"
That question would be: "Since you decided to quit the Jehovah's Witnesses for doctrinal/practice reasons, why do you still hangout at "ex-JW" sites? Why don't you simply move on?"
Reminds me of that song by U2: "Stuck in a moment that you can't get out of it"
I've stated my reasons to stay, now I would like to hear yours for not moving on.
Eden
Where do you stand on the WTS being god's chosen channel since 1919?
Who says we haven't moved on?
Many of us are here to help others with our experiences. I used to think the Watchtower was basically right part from a few errors. You will soon see how the whole thing you used to call "the truth" is based on nothing.
EDEN ONE- With all due respect in answer to your question " Why do you still hang out on ex-JW websites " ? I can speak for myself at least that I'm here to assist people like yourself who may be newly exiting the witnesses or are sitting on the fence seeking information about mind control tactics the WT Society uses to entrap JW's. Sure- I've been on this board since 2007 and I could easily leave tomorrow- but I received a lot of moral support here when I exited the Witnesses and I'm here to pay it forward to others who need a friend when starting life over after leaving the Witnesses. I'll be on this board a long time in order to help others as I've been helped. just my 2 cents coming from my vantage point
Eden: Why don't you simply move on?
Fair enough.
I'd like this whole experience to be in my rear view mirror, I really would.
But the harsh fact is that it's simply not that easy to leave an manipulative, mind-control group without going through a lot of steps. They include anger, resentment, and a whole host of other things related to sorting out what one still believes and what you don't. It's a journey of self-discovery and understanding. It helps to discuss things with others here that have gone through it and are still going through it.
Just this morning I talked on the phone with another JWN poster. He described his initial experience of leaving as being like Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder. It lasted two years for him. This is not some weak-minded person. On the contrary he is a good, loving, caring, and compassionate man. He is a husband, a father and a businessman. He is highly intelligent and very articulate. And yet he was on the verge of breaking-down and losing it when he told me of some of the abusive, uncaring and unkind ways he'd been treated by congregation elders when his family went through a personal crisis. This mistreatment was nearly a decade ago and it still tears him up. He's not atypical.
Also, for many of us here, myself included, we have family still stuck in the organization. We discuss different ways to deal with being shunned and strategies for reaching them.
Finally, we make friends here, real friends that care about us for WHO we are, not WHAT we pretend to believe.
I hope that answers your question, at least in part.
00DAD
I'm here to assist people like yourself who may be newly exiting the witnesses or are sitting on the fence seeking information about mind control tactics the WT Society uses to entrap JW's.
What he said. Although there is also a sort of "brotherhood" that exists among those that have been burned so badly by the WT. We dont' agree on many things, but we all have that traumatic experience in common.
cofty, Flipper, 00DAD, Christ Alone, thank you for your sincere answers. I find them quite respectable.
To Cantleave: If you can prove me in the Bible that God needs a "channel", then we can discuss who that channel may be and when is it in operation. The way I see it, Jesus appointed the FDS for dispensing spiritual food in 33CE; The FDS back then were the original 11 faithful apostles. From then on, everyone that followed the apostles (that means, every single Christian denomination) has been a "slave" in the household of the Master. And, since Jesus doesn't seem to make appointments while he's absent, it turns that the appointment of the FDS over "all the master's belongings" hasn't happened yet. (Because i don't believe that Christ returned in 1914). This means that
a) There wasn't any appointment of a FDS in 1919
b) The Jehovah's Witnesses aren't but one among many "slaves" in the household of the Master (christianity), producing spiritual nourishment until the Master arrives again and makes judgement among his slaves (christian religions / christian producers of spiritual nourishment) and decides which one(s) will be entrusted over his entire belongings. Therefore, I don't believe in the inerrancy of the GB, as you can imagine.
Eden
Eden To Cantleave: If you can prove me in the Bible that God needs a "channel", then we can discuss who that channel may be and when is it in operation. The way I see it, Jesus appointed the FDS for dispensing spiritual food in 33CE; The FDS back then were the original 11 faithful apostles. From then on, everyone that followed the apostles (that means, every single Christian denomination) has been a "slave" in the household of the Master. And, since Jesus doesn't seem to make appointments while he's absent, it turns that the appointment of the FDS over "all the master's belongings" hasn't happened yet. (Because i don't believe that Christ returned in 1914). This means that
Hi Eden, Have you read Mathew 12:16-20, 12:22-37, and 28:16-20 (see verses below)? Don't those scriptures and many more in Mark, Luke, John, and Acts make it very clear that the Holy Spirit is God's channel to everyone and not through leaders of some organization? From your posts you appear to be at a cross-road of cognitive dissonance of following Jesus Christ or continuing to follow the GB/WTBTS. How did you feel when you read "Crisis of Conscience" when Raymond Franz described actions of the GB/WTBTS? From Franz's writings do you feel that the GB is guided by the Holy Spirit?
By the way, the reason I post on JWN is to help other people (i.e., JWs, exJWs, and people adversely affected by the WTBTS) to learn ways to heal faster from their dangerous cult exposure and to promote ways to change/dismantle dangerous cults like the WTBTS, Scientology, Unification Church, Mormons, etc. - basically any organization that promotes shunning family and friends to its members or uses BITE control techniques.
Peace be with you and everyone, who you love,
Robert
Mathew 12:16-20 (1984 NIV Bible)
16 “I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves. 17 Be on your guard; you will be handed over to the local councils and be flogged in the synagogues. 18 On my account you will be brought before governors and kings as witnesses to them and to the Gentiles. 19 But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, 20 for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.
Mathew 12:22-37 (1984 NIV Bible) Jesus and Beelzebul
22 Then they brought him a demon-possessed man who was blind and mute, and Jesus healed him, so that he could both talk and see. 23 All the people were astonished and said, “Could this be the Son of David?”
24 But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons.”
25 Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand. 26 If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand? 27 And if I drive out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your people drive them out? So then, they will be your judges. 28 But if it is by the Spirit of God that I drive out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
29 “Or again, how can anyone enter a strong man’s house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man? Then he can plunder his house.
30 “Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters. 31 And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
33 “Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit. 34 You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of. 35 A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him. 36 But I tell you that everyone will have to give account on the day of judgment for every empty word they have spoken. 37 For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.”
Mathew 28:16-20 (1984 NIV Bible) The Great Commission
16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
ABibleStudent:
Until I read Crisis in Conscience, Raymond Franz was to me no more than "Fred Franz's nephew who once was a member of the Governing Body until he became an apostate and was disfellowshipped". End of story. I also heard some insinuations that involved homosexuallity. But I never bothered to look into it with much detail. However, it bugged me why the books "Aid to the Bible Understanding" had been so quickly replaced by the "Insight" books, when they have basically the same content and structure. Again, I've heard: "It's because Ray Franz authored "Aid" and there is apostate material in it". Hmmm ...ok. Again, I didn't do much to research it - this being the pre-internet era (at least for me). Most Jehovah's Witnesses would do the same, as you know.
In any case, about one year ago I've taken interest in finding out exactly what the controversy is about the 1914 calculation. Because the entire "generation" explanation stopped making sense to me. That has lead me to investigate the date of 607, and it went on .... then I realized that the crux of the matter involving Ray Franz's disfellowshipping was precisely the chronology regarding 1914. And that has lead me into reading his book Crisis in Conscience. When I read it, a couple of things struck me. First, that Ray wasn't a bitter scorned man trying to vilify the WTS by any possible means. Rather, he seemed at peace with the events, and very moderate and candid in his account of the events. It had the "ring of truth", if you will. Secondly, it was obvious that the Governing Body members are embarassingly human. For someone that claims to be God's channel on Earth, I would expect them to behave differently than a Administration Board of some multinational business corporation. I was disappointed to learn it otherwise. Of course, one thing leads to another, and I found myself reading about the life of past presidents of the WTS. In particular, I was baffled about Rutherford's life. But, back to Ray Franz, I think he hit the nail about the WTS when he mentioned that its main problem isn't the lie, but rather the myth that has been constructed around the WTS and the Governing Body. A myth that they themselves believe. Well, I stopped believing in the myth and started to do my own research. And this research is making me drift apart from the promoters of this myth.
However, I don't think they got it entirely wrong, and despite everything, I believe they're not evil people, and that they genuinely believe in what they teach. And, frankly, for the time being, I think my spirituallity - and mental health - is better served if I continue to be a member of my congregation. However, I feel it's my duty (and in a certain way, my ministry), to share with others what I find in my Bible studies.
As for the Holy Spirit being the channel ... I believe the Holy Spirit is the vehicle, not the channel; It's the difference between the car and the road. The GB claims to be the only road by which the Holy Spirit travels. However, that is not what Jesus said. He taught that anyone who sincerely asks God for his Holy Spirit and looks into the Scriptures for direction, will be able to be guided by that spirit.
Eden
was reading your site this morning, eden - I enjoyed the article about redemption
regarding what you said in your post above
However, I feel it's my duty (and in a certain way, my ministry), to share with others what I find in my Bible studies.
I often feel like this but only speak out for humanitarian reasons when I want to do something to create a little space for people who may be trapped inside myths that deny them basic humanity and when I do so I try always to make this clear. Perhaps this is the reason I have survived so long
On the other hand I do often remain quiet as I reason that human suffering is often a springboard for change.
