Welcome I think
SW
Greetings from a new member
by EdenOne 110 Replies latest jw friends
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Marvin Shilmer
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EdenOne,
Thanks for introducing yourself and advertising your web presence. I’ll keep an eye out for your work.
Marvin Shilmer
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Marvin Shilmer
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“This is spam for a competing website.”
LOL james_woods!
When’s the last time you embraced and enjoyed something right out of the box?
Oh, and don’t forget that one man’s spam is another man’s steak! Right?
Marvin Shilmer
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ABibleStudent
Welcome Eden to JWN. It is refreshing different for a JW who believes in (most) Watchtower doctrines to have an interactive dialogue with people who the Watchtower claims are apostates. Most JWs run and hide because they cannot defend their beliefs when asked simple questions.
How would you answer a JW who says the Watchtower indoctrinated platitude "Were else would we go?" when their beliefs are challenged. According to John 6:60-70, I believe that a Christian (a follower of Christ) would say to Jesus Christ and not to the Watchtower.
Peace be with you and everyone, who you love,
Robert
John 6:60-70 (1984 NIV Bible)
Many Disciples Desert Jesus
60 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”
61 Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit [e] and life. 64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”
66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.
67 “You do not want to leave too, do you?” Jesus asked the Twelve.
68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 We have come to believe and to know that you are the Holy One of God.”
70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!” 71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)
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cobaltcupcake
Welcome Eden!
Beyond the doctrinal issues, what do you think of the two-witness policy that protects pedophiles in the congregation? Have you read about the Candace Conti case?
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Fernando
A hearty warm welcome Eden!
I pray God's richest blessings on your spiritual journey, and that you will cover ground you never imagined possible before.
Greetings and blessings
Fernando
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EdenOne
Hello everyone. My first 24 hour “restriction” is over and I can post again. Since I’m not sure how many posts I have available now for the next 24 hours, I will try to cover as much as I can from your previous posts. I hope you don’t find that offensive, but I have to administrate the meager post count I’m entitled to as a newbie, so I will post as much as I can ona single post.
First of all, thank you for the welcome messages. It’s encouraging to meet you all, those who like or dislike the WTS, those who agree or disagree, those who are, were or never been Jehovah’s Witnesses. As long as we all realize we don’t have reasons to hate each other, I believe we can all live peacefully in this online realm. We’re all God’s children trying to make do in this strange world, so why don’t we try to make the best out of it, right?
To Marvin Shilmer: Thank you for your welcome. I’ve visited your website a few times, and I’m looking forward to exchange some ideas with you sometime.
To James Woods: I hope that in time you’ll come to realize I’m not a troll, not a hit-and-run, and not a “competitor” to this forum. I’m a real person just as you are, who stands by the things he believes, in the best way he knows and can. I’ve read your bio info on your profile, I can say that I never met Ray Franz nor any of his close friends, but after reading Crisis of Conscience I can assure you that I felt terrible about the way these valuable brothers were chased out of Bethel HQ. One of the Watchtower’s darkest moments for sure. I understand and respect your disdain for everything that “smells” Watchtower, and won’t try to talk you out of it, but I hope that in time you may come to respect me as a person.
To AbibleStudent: Thank you for your kind remarks. As for your question, it’s true, the WTS promotes the notion that it’s their way, or no way. But, aren’t most religious groups the same way? After all, if a religious group is persuaded that they are the sole recipient of the “truth”, that they are God’s elected people, the consequence of that line of thinking is that there is no salvation outside the boundaries of such group. The Jehovah’s Witnesses aren’t even original in that advocacy of the monopoly of truth. The problem is upstream. Jesus said: “ Anyone who is not against you is for you”.(Luke 9:50) Paul also said: “Who are you to judge someone else’s [Jesus’] slave? To his own Master, he stands of falls” (Romans 14:4). We should stop being so judgemental about each other. We are but slaves on the household of the Master. And slaves shouldn’t judge each other. The Master does and will do that for sure, when the due time comes. This is true for the leadership of the Watchtower, but it is also true for those who are bitter critics of the Watchtower.
To Cobaltcupcake: I’m well familiar with the Conti case against the Watchtower. I feel deeply sorry and grieved for what happened to her and won’t fingerpoint at her for taking legal action against the Watchtower. I think she should have done it without the involvement of SilentLambs, for this will easily be portrayed as a Apostates versus Watchtower subject and this would deserve a better, less intoxicated debate. To me, the “two witnesses” policy is a sensible rule when dealing with judgement of sinful conduct within the congregation. Now, before you throw stones at me, please realize that I understand child abuse as a CRIME and should be treated as such BEFORE it’s dealt with as a sin, and therefore should be immediately reported to the criminal authorities as soon as it is learned from an elder, ministerial servant or anyone involved for that matter- parents included. That is before the “legal department” of Bethel is informed. The “legal department” might (or not) be involved only after the legal duty is fulfilled- therefore at a later stage. The “two witnesses” rule should be valid for an assessment of sinful conduct within the boudaries of the congregation. As for the crime, it should be left in the hands of the authorities. However, what if the investigation led by the authorities concludes that there was indeed a crime practiced? In that case, I have the opinion that the authority should count as a “witness” together with the victim in the assessment of the sinful conduct. As I said, when a crime (or suspected crime) has been commited, it should be reported to the authorities pronto! What if an individual with a proven track record of child abuse has moved to a new congregation? I believe it’s fair that the all parents of minor children be discretely informed of the problem and let THEM take appropriate preventive measures. All body of Elders should likewise be aware of the situation and everyone involved in organizing field service should not allow this person to have any unsupervised contact with minors. In my years as an Elder I never dealt with a case of child abuse, so honestly I cannot speak out of personal experience. But I think these would be reasonable, common-sense things to do. The problem with the GB is that often they won’t be persuaded by common sense.
To Breakfast of Champions: Just for you, I changed my offensive avatar :P
To cofty: What are the “good news of the Kingdom” ? Well, that depends of what you perceive to be the “Kingdom” isn’t it? If one narrows the “Kingdom” to being a governmental administration in heavens that will replace all other forms of government on earth, as per Daniel 2:44, then surely the “good news of the Kingdom” will be centered around announcing that government, explaining how it works, and enumerating the blessings brought by it. That’s the essence of the “Good News of the Kingdom” as seen by the Jehovah’s Witnesses. However, there is a lot more to the Kingdom than just being a government. That’s just one aspect of what the Kingdom is. In my article, “The Divine Purpose of Redemption – Part 6- The Double Mission of Christ”, I enumerate 7 different things that the Kingdom is. Therefore, if you share my belief in those 7 aspects of the Kingdom, then the “Good News of The Kingdom” that one should share with others become a little different.
To Pterist: About Jeremiah 25:29. I don’t think the NWT is less competent about the translation of that text than any other translation. The issue here is the interpretation of the text. Those who use Jeremiah 25:29 the way they do to prove their case could do the same using other translations. That doesn’t mean I agree with their case. The issue here is if the NWT is purposedly twisting the spirit of the original Hebrew text. I don’t think it is. However it is translated in the most convenient way that the Hebrew text allows … but that doesn’t make it any less competent, IMHO.
To Christ Alone: I’m sure we’ll have time to discuss a lot of the subjects that you brought up, namely that of salvation. But I will say this- Salvation is between the individual and Jehovah. Can there be salvation outside the Jehovah’s Witnesses? I don’t know for sure. God knows. Can there be salvation within the Jehovah’s Witnesses? I don’t know for sure. God knows. What I’m persuaded is that there isn’t salvation outside Christ, for the his the “Chief Agent and Savior”, and there is salvation on no one else (Acts 4:12) I also know that “ It shall be that everyone who calls on the name of THE LORD JEHOVAH shall receive life. (Acts 2:21- The Aramaic Bible in plain English) I also know that the baptism in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit is a requirement for salvation (1 Peter 3:21; Matthew 28:19) Our moral behavior is also involved in our salvation (Phillipeans 1:27,28) Endurance in “good works” is also necessary for salvation (Romans 2:6-9) Accepting and having faith in Christ’s sacrifice is also a necessary requirement for salvation (Romans 5:8, 9 18) Upholding the Bible is necessary for salvation too (2 Timothy 3:15) Engaging in sharing the “good news of the Kingdom” is also a requirement for salvation (Romans 1:16). These are some fundamental requirements for salvation. Are these exclusive to Jehovah’s Witnesses or are the Jehovah’s Witnesses doing all the above? Are there other people, organized or not, doing those things? That should give you some answers to start with. But I would love further talking with you.
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cantleave
Welcome to the board. I enjoyed your rebuttals above.
Just one thing, your definition of good news. I would be pretty pissed off if your god does take over this world, he's viscious,nasty, murderous despot with no redeeming qualities. But I won't hold that against you.
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james_woods
To James Woods: I hope that in time you’ll come to realize I’m not a troll, not a hit-and-run, and not a “competitor” to this forum. I’m a real person just as you are, who stands by the things he believes, in the best way he knows and can. I’ve read your bio info on your profile, I can say that I never met Ray Franz nor any of his close friends, but after reading Crisis of Conscience I can assure you that I felt terrible about the way these valuable brothers were chased out of Bethel HQ. One of the Watchtower’s darkest moments for sure. I understand and respect your disdain for everything that “smells” Watchtower, and won’t try to talk you out of it, but I hope that in time you may come to respect me as a person.
Fair enough - but it is difficult for me to understand people staying in this organization (even defending it) and at the same time creating and attending ex-JW websites which are critical of it. It seems to me that the signals are obvious enough that people should be able to make up their mind to either stay in it with conviction, or leave it with conviction - and not to be riding the fence, so to speak.
Perhaps you need more time.
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DATA-DOG
Don't change your Avatar! I love Hobbs! Also, welcome!
As Tornapart said, be careful. Are you aware that you are automatically considered to be out of " good standing " within the WTBTS if you do not believe every thing the GB says? If you have any " organizational " privileges you WILL lose them if they know you disagree with even the slightest doctrinal matter.