"Right to bear arms" should mean ...

by Simon 616 Replies latest members politics

  • cedars
    cedars

    mouthy - as has already been demonstrated on this very thread, the gun lovers see "right to bear" and "gun control" as being inter-linked (as evidenced by all the "you can pry my gun from my cold dead fingers" rhetoric), but they are not. This is not necessarily about confiscating people's weapons.

    You can still keep your "right to bear arms" and have gun control simultaneously provided you are an upstanding citizen with no criminal record, a clean bill of health psychologically, and a bit of money to spend on a license to indulge your passion (most gun owners need a bit of money anyway). That's how it works in the UK where we have vastly reduced rates of gun crime, as evidenced by the statistics that Besty presented.

    Unfortunately there's a lot of misinformation being circulated leading to the misconception that gun control is about guns being automatically prohibited for the ordinary citizen. This is plain wrong. The longer the confusion and smokescreens continue, the more innocent American civillians will die at the hands of psychopaths.

    Cedars

  • Max Divergent
    Max Divergent

    A couple of points. I might say that I am not especially engaged in guns or no guns. I put a hundred rounds down the range an hour ago: I’m OK with guns per se. My problem is with people. Guns are easier to control than people. And out of control people in an environment with little control over guns is a bad mix.

    A recurring argument in various forms is that other things like cars and knives and even spoons and baseball bats can be used to deadly effect. The main reason the point is irrelevant (although true) is that there is no codified right in the US (or anywhere else so far as I know) to use cars, knives, spoons, baseball bats or just anything except ‘arms’. Thus, legislators are able to set and enforce what laws they see fit for cars, knives etc and adjust those laws as required. However the codified right to bear arms stops the legislature from making such laws in connection to guns if it may impinge ‘the right of the people to keep and bear arms ’.

    If the Bill of Rights gave ‘the right of the people to keep and bear cars (or knives, or baseball bats, or cobras, lions, or whatever)’ then I would expect those thigs would be making the streets dangerous given there coujld be few laws aroud those things.

    Also, the assertions that gun controls would not result in fewer deaths need supporting evidence. The contrary view has some evidence. For those interested in an example of increased gun control preceding marked reductions in gun deaths, Australia provides one. Gun deaths have been more than halved in ten years, yet guns are still available under licence (but not for self-defence, and there is no need for that snce even crooks are reticent to be caught using a gun).

    This is a summary of an article that may be of interest (link follows):

    “…As the US once again struggles with the issue of gun control, the success of John Howard's 1996 laws banning semi-automatic weapons in Australia has been raised in the American debate.

    ‘The New York Times has referred to Australia's gun laws as a "road map" for the US, saying that "in the 18 years before the law, Australia suffered 13 mass shootings - but not one in the 14 years after the law took full effect."

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-12-17/us-urged-to-consider-australia-gun-laws-example/4431262

    One anti-gun lobby presents these stattistics, note the drop since the late 1990s. I cannot vouch for the source or the perfection of the numbers, but the reduction in gun deaths is real. But, rifles (not semi-auto) are still readily available for target shooting, hunting and for farmers and pistols for competition use with waiting periods and checks applied.

  • besty
    besty

    @TT2C

    What do you think would happen, if banks were "gun-free" zones and they didn't have guards?

    You mean like the UK? - People go to the bank, withdraw some dough, and then go shopping. Not an armed guard in sight. Ever.

    What you are describing is an escalating arms race to the bottom - armed guards in kindergartens - you see no issue in the type of society you are creating?

    The USA has 15x per capita guns in circulation compared to the UK. Yet the USA has 74x the firearm homicide rate. There is a non-linear acceleration between number of guns and death by guns. You don't just get more death with more guns, you actually get more, more, more death. And yet you are suggesting the answer might be....wait for it...MORE GUNS.

    As an aside - the USA accidental death rate from firearms is also 2x the UK equivalent, or 850 people per annum in raw numbers - think about a national program of armed guards in schools - thats probably good for 20 deads kids per annum, just by accident.

    PS - the school bus starts to look like an attractive soft target - maybe you should consider armor-plating them...just sayin.

  • TD
    TD

    Cedars,

    ...as has already been demonstrated on this very thread, the gun lovers see "right to bear" and "gun control" as being inter-linked (as evidenced by all the "you can pry my gun from my cold dead fingers" rhetoric), but they are not. This is not necessarily about confiscating people's weapons.

    I think there is an important distinction between gun control and gun control argument(s).

    We have gun control in America. --Obviously not as much as you would like to see, but more than you appear to realize:

    ...and if they do need or want to own an automatic rifle, what's so bad about paying for a license and undergoing periodic checks of your criminal record and psychological state? Especially if it helps to ensure that Sandy Hook massacre is less likely to happen again

    Automatic weapons have been rigidly controlled in America since 1934. Ownership requires a Class III license, fingerprinting and photographs, clearance from law enforcement at the local level, an oral interview and an understanding that law enforcement will have increased rights in entering your home than they would normally have. Applications can be denied without prejudice, which means that in some localities it will be impossible to obtain a license because local law enforcment may reflexively deny applications. The license is $200 with an additional $500 in annual taxes for the Class III status.

    But gun control in America in the form of licensing, background checks, etc. is not quite the same thing as arguments for gun control. The latter invariably targets the right itself and in that respect, they are interlinked. This thread, its title and the OP is a good example.

  • designs
    designs

    Interesting that George Bush has been silent on the Sandy Hook tragedy and the current debate on these types of firearms.

  • designs
    designs

    A ground swell may have started in this country the way a ground swell of change was started by Candice Lightner whose daughter was killed by a drunk driver, Candice started Mothers Against Drunk Driving MADD.

  • sammielee24
    sammielee24

    Yeah Besty - this is too ridiculous.

    We go to the bank at 8 am, sometimes 5 pm and guess what???? I've never seen any armed guard by the door EVER. The only time I've ever seen security is when the cash trucks do their runs. A guy was at the mall here in Canada - he was from Texas and he didn't see any armed security and was actually TERRIFIED. He asked where the security was and said he never goes out, nor does his wife and daughter without being armed.

    Those are major differences in how we view freedom.

    I have NO fear of going to the bank, or the mall - when I got my social security in the USA there was an armed guard IN the room - when I went through immigration there were three armed guards that I had to go through - went to the social 'security' office here in Canada and guess what? Not one guard. Went to immigration here and guess what? Not one guard.

    THAT is freedom.

    sammieswife

  • J. Hofer
    J. Hofer

    What do you think would happen, if banks were "gun-free" zones and they didn't have guards?

    interesting question... in my country banks are gun-free zones and don't have guards. there are other security measures in place that don't prevent robberies but make them pretty much unfeasible or not worth the risk.

  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog

    I'm pleading with you all, if you love your children, please don't put faith in any "gun laws". The laws may give you a warm and fuzzy feeling, but they will not save your child from a nutcase.

    If people are really serious about stopping this kind of thing, they are going to have to come to terms with providing for armed personnel inside ALL schools regardless of any new “gun laws”.

    It’s been happening in many inner city schools already. Anything short of that is a guaranty something similar WILL happen again.

  • moshe
    moshe
    in my country banks are gun-free zones and don't have guards.

    I don't imagine they need armed bank guards in Iowa either.

    I was in the Philippines once and wanted to exchange some American currency- I was stopped by the guard with a shotgun- what was my business? Then I was allowed to enter the bank. Most of the nice mall stores had armed guards, too. In Puerto Rico the shopping center mall had armed guards in a crows nest (looked like the had asualt style rifle with a scope) overlooking the parking lot- and inside the mall plenty of armed guards.

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