"Right to bear arms" should mean ...

by Simon 616 Replies latest members politics

  • besty
    besty

    hey TD

    The author you cited takes 700 pages to argue his point, which in his conclusion is:

    Nevertheless, the bur den of proof rests on the proponents of the more guns equal more death and fewer guns equal less death mantra, espe - cially since they argue public policy ought to be based on that mantra. 149 To bear that burden would at the very least require showing that a large number of nations with more guns have more death and that nations that have imposed stringent gun controls have achieved substantial reductions in criminal violence (or suicide). But those correlations are not observed when a large number of nations are compared across the world.

    As a civil rights lawyer acting for gun owners, I'm not sure he is claiming to be neutral - in any event - is he denying reality - you tell me...

  • Talk22
    Talk22

    why the gun is civilization.

    Human beings only have two ways to deal with one another: reason and force. If you want me to do something for you, you have a choice of either convincing me via argument, or force me to do your bidding under threat of force. Every human interaction falls into one of those two categories, without exception. Reason or force, that’s it.

    In a truly moral and civilized society, people exclusively interact through persuasion. Force has no place as a valid method of social interaction, and the only thing that removes force from the menu is the personal firearm, as paradoxical as it may sound to some.

    When I carry a gun, you cannot deal with me by force. You have to use reason and try to persuade me, because I have a way to negate your threat or employment of force. The gun is the only personal weapon that puts a 100-pound woman on equal footing with a 220-pound mugger, a 75-year old retiree on equal footing with a 19-year old gangbanger, and a single gay guy on equal footing with a carload of drunk guys with baseball bats. The gun removes the disparity in physical strength, size, or numbers between a potential attacker and a defender.

    There are plenty of people who consider the gun as the source of bad force equations. These are the people who think that we’d be more civilized if all guns were removed from society, because a firearm makes it easier for a mugger to do his job. That, of course, is only true if the mugger’s potential victims are mostly disarmed either by choice or by legislative fiat–it has no validity when most of a mugger’s potential marks are armed. People who argue for the banning of arms ask for automatic rule by the young, the strong, and the many, and that’s the exact opposite of a civilized society. A mugger, even an armed one, can only make a successful living in a society where the state has granted him a force monopoly.

    Then there’s the argument that the gun makes confrontations lethal that otherwise would only result in injury. This argument is fallacious in several ways. Without guns involved, confrontations are won by the physically superior party inflicting overwhelming injury on the loser. People who think that fists, bats, sticks, or stones don’t constitute lethal force watch too much TV, where people take beatings and come out of it with a bloody lip at worst. The fact that the gun makes lethal force easier works solely in favor of the weaker defender, not the stronger attacker. If both are armed, the field is level. The gun is the only weapon that’s as lethal in the hands of an octogenarian as it is in the hands of a weightlifter. It simply wouldn’t work as well as a force equalizer if it wasn’t both lethal and easily employable.

    When I carry a gun, I don’t do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I’m looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don’t carry it because I’m afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn’t limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force. It removes force from the equation…and that’s why carrying a gun is a civilized act.

  • besty
    besty

    minimus

    If I were in the UK, I would worry more about bomb attacks.

    If you were in the UK I would worry about bomb attacks to :-)

  • Finkelstein
    Finkelstein

    Its not as complicated as it seems, more guns in the hands in possession of the population, more likelihood of acts of violence using guns.

    Particularly concerning hand guns and small assault rifles.

    Think about what particular guns were used by all of the recent assault massacres. !

    Call it the law of averages.

  • cyberjesus
    cyberjesus

    People who want to have guns have been watching too many old west movies.

    Buying a gun implies intent to use it..... Every person who wants a gun is planning to use it if necesary....

    They imagine countless scenarios...... some even think of carrying them at schools.....

    To feel safe you need a gun?

    where do you live?

  • undercover
    undercover

    Okay, whoever posed those children holding those pistols should not have the right to own guns. They are obviously not fit to possess firearms...or parent children.

    And there's the biggest problem with gun ownership... it's too fucking easy. Almost anyone, except felons, can own a firearm. Banning types of guns isn't the quick fix. It might be well meaning, but somewhat pointless. Banning "assault" rifles doesn't stop nutjobs with semi-automatics from opening up on people.

    Instead, focus on the people who want to own a firearm. Deeper background checks. Maybe a psych exam of some kind. If they show in a psych exam as to be someone who isn't completely stable, then they are denied the permit. Easier said than done, but you have to start somewhere.

    What it really comes down to is - do you ban the instrument, or do you limit who can own the instrument? It's one or the other. Or a combination - you limit the type of instrument and you limit who is allowed to own the instrument.

    I know, you can't fix the entire problem in one fell swoop either. First you tackle the ownership laws, start to make progress there. And then you go after the illegal guns. And harsher penalties for gun crimes and illegal ownership. Yes - it's hard. But isn't anything worth saving - children, for instance - worth the effort?

  • Finkelstein
    Finkelstein

    The other thing to realize is that just because someone gets the OK to own and purchase a gun(s) doesn't mean that their gun(s)

    wont be used by someone who isn't mentally stable. Case in point Adam Lanza.

    And as I've mentioned before just because someone passes a screening test for mental stability,

    doesn't mean they will never become mentally unstable into the future.

    All the recent massacres by the recent assailants ( outside of Adam Lanza ) were deemed mentally stable during their gun purchasing process.

    I think if there was a polling vote in the US upon whether or not hand guns and semi-automatic assault rifles should

    be banned for sale and distribution, the majority of votes would be in favor of banning those type of guns.

    Ever more so now.

  • Simon
    Simon
    If I could have saved even one of those people, I'd give up every gun I have. But that wouldn't have saved any of them. Neither would stricter gun controls, since this creep stole the weapons he used from his mother, who had them legally in a state that has one of the strictest gun control schemes in this country.

    Erm whaaa?! Your reasoning is just so flawed. Did you even understand the question?

    If the guns were not legal to own then she wouldn't have had them and he couldn't have used them. Pretty simple really.

    Yes, some people will still get guns illegally but there will be fewer guns around which means fewer opportunities for them to be 'there' when someone goes mental.

    Following your argument it wouldn't make any difference to the rate of gun-deaths if you hung machine guns off every lampost which would be a rediculous claim.

  • TD
    TD

    Besty,

    Thanks for taking a look at the HJLPP article

    is he denying reality - you tell me...

    I think it's a matter of interpreting data. It's a no-brainer that more guns even in a relatively nonviolent society will result in more murders with guns.

    What's not clear is whether this is a vertical movement in the number of murders; a lateral movement in the manner in which murders are committed or a diagonal vector of some sort.

    I can see the argument that even if a vector is only rotated 1º above the X axis it is still a preventable increase in murder and this is why comparative studies and raw numbers becomes so important to both sides.

  • Simon
    Simon

    BTW: Another thought ...

    Some are suggesting that the answer to this issue is to have more armed guards (basically, more guns everywhere).

    At some point, one of those people will lose it. It's just bound to happen.

    And who will foot the bill? Why does everyone else have to pay to protect themselves against the gun-toters? This is where mandatory insurance would help.

    But also, something else to consider...

    How many of these mass spree killings are stopped by law enforcement? How much law enforcement effort and cost is going into this? What else could they be doing if they weren't spending their time investigating potential killings like this?

    Prevalence of guns is a cancer in your society and it's likely affecting more than you imagine.

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