I can't imagine not believing in God.

by MsGrowingGirl20 643 Replies latest members private

  • caliber
    caliber

    When were the gospels written and by whom?

    http://carm.org/when-were-gospels-written-and-whom

    a quote from the above..

    The John Rylands papyrus fragment 52 of John's gospel dated in the year 125-135 contains portions of John 18, verses 31-33,37-38. This fragment was found in Egypt. It is the last of the gospels and appears to have been written in the 80's to 90's. Most scholars say it was written in the early 90's. This means that the time span between the original writing of John and its earliest copy (fragment) is approximately 35-45 years.

    John does not mention the destruction of the Jewish temple in 70 A.D. Some say this is because John was not focusing on historical events. Instead, John focused on the theological aspect of the person of Christ and listed His miracles and words that affirmed Christ's deity. This is a possibiltiy, but like the reasoning used regarding Matthew, Mark, and Luke, the lack of significant historical markers is also evidence that it was written early on.

    Though there is still some debate on the dates of when the gospels were written, they were most assuredly completed before the close of the first century and written by eyewitnesses or under the direction of eyewitnesses. (Such is Mark under eyewitness direction )

    Are not the words recorded by a stenographer viewed as valid in a court of law ?

    ste·nog·ra·pher

    n. One skilled in stenography, especially one employed to take and transcribe dictation or testimony

  • EntirelyPossible
    EntirelyPossible

    Of course you can choose to not accept that view but the point is that there is no concrete evidence that Mark did NOT write the original gospel attributed to him.

    Counting the hits and ignoring the misses. That article says, out of the gate, " The Gospel of Mark is anonymous; there is no internal, direct evidence for its authorship". Then it says the writing has the style of an eyewitness, then quotes Papias who claims that Mark wasn't an eyewitness and got his info from Peter.

    At best, the article leaves you with "unknown" as the answer.

  • perfect1
    perfect1

    Hey MsGrowing Girl,

    You wont really know what not believing in God is like unless you try it.

    Those of us who have tried it tend to like it.

    The beauty is, faith is personal, its up to you and is really no one elses business.

  • Etude
    Etude

    PSacramento:

    " there is no concrete evidence that Mark did NOT write the original gospel attributed to him. "

    You've just made a fallacious argument. It goes like this: "Prove that that the invisible man isn't there." This argument reworded comes out like this: "There is no evidence demonstrating that the invisible man isn't there." If one uses the proof that no one can see him, then that seems to reinforce that the man is indeed invisible and therefore must be there. That is called a logical fallacy. Here's how it goes:

    14. False Burden of Proof

    In order to have a worthwhile argument, if you make a claim, you have the burden of proving it. This is the simple premise behind the false burden of proof fallacy. This fallacy occurs when someone makes a claim, and then says that because his/her opponent lacks evidence to the contrary, the claim is therefore correct or valid.

    For example, say that Paul says, “Little invisible green men are living inside my brain and telling me what to do. You can’t prove me wrong, so therefore I’m right.” Unfortunately for Paul, this line of reasoning is flawed. If you make a claim, and assert it as true, you can’t then shift the burden to the other party and make them prove otherwise. This is why plaintiffs have the burden of proof in court–they’re the one(s) asserting the claim.

    A good general rule for intense rational argument: if you can’t prove it, don’t assert it.

    http://www.electrogent.com/2012/09/argue-like-a-man-understanding-logical-fallacies-part-5/

    It is an argument, but it's an erroneous argument. Beyond that, in your reference link (http://www.abu.nb.ca/courses/ntintro/mark.htm) you don't seem to investigate very deeply. First, the site states that there is no internal evidence to support Mark wrote Mark. Secondly, it points to affinities of spoken Greek, which Mark (by any measure of the time) most likely did not speak. Thirdly, that there are hints of Semitic syntactical grammar only means that someone with some Semitic influence might have influenced the document. Still, there's no information regarding why a man who was likely illiterate could have authored. Fourthly, the vividness of the account may suggest the enthusiasm of an eye witness. However, it can also suggest the craftiness of a very good teller of tales, the same vividness used by novelists, the same vividness used by a dramatist. Those factors are just as valid. Fifthly, the inclusion of Eusebius as a reference merely establishes that someone heard what someone else (Papias) heard. But if you look deeper you will find that " Eusebius calls Papias a man of small mental capacity."(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papias_of_Hierapolis) He didn't trust him. So, if you're going to believe an account, maybe you should believe Eusebius and realize that Papias was full of crap and tended to exaggerate when talking about what Mark and Peter did. Finally, the site you referred to notes that Mark has earthier style, less literary. That is true simply because Mark is considered the earliest gospel written. That gave other writers a chance to review Mark and deploy other gospels around it.

  • Chariklo
    Chariklo

    This is rather a sad thread.

    It didn't start out that way. It started out with a lovely honest statement from MsGrowingGirl that she couldn't imagine not believing in God. By page 15, and for many pages before, it is just the usual mix of cynicism from the same old names who plaintively churn out the same old requests for "proof" and "evidence" for a God who by any stretch of the imagination is going to be so far beyond our understanding that such questioners wouldn't...and clearly don't recognise evidence when it is probably staring you in the face.

    I doubt if you trouble God, though he may at times look in and laconically raise a half-amused eyebrow.

    And he might feel, as I do, sad at the way you naysayers have nothing better to do with your time than try to destroy someone else's faith. Don't bother with them, MsGrowingGirl. We know you are struggling with whether or not you really want to be a JW, and you know my views on that, but it does sound to me as if you have a direct awareness of God as you will find many of us have.

    Hang on to what you know and don't listen to the nonsense.

  • cantleave
    cantleave

    I doubt if you trouble God,

    I would have thought such a being would be more concerned about shootings in primary schools, suffering due to diseases he created and the terrible design of this planet that results in earthquakes, tsunamis, volcano and destructive weather systems.

  • Chariklo
    Chariklo

    Absolutely...oh, I just re-read the last bit.

    Well, no, not absolutely like that. That's not the way it is.

    But that's a discussion as old as time, and fruitless here with those committed to no faith. (Not including you in that, can't leave.)

  • cofty
    cofty

    Chariklo - There are lots of helpful and thoughtful replies to the OP in the first couple of pages.

    The author of the thread has chosen not to reply after page 1 at which point the thread was right on topic.

    Please stop this tiresome habit of scolding people who don't share your view of the world.

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    You've just made a fallacious argument. It goes like this: "Prove that that the invisible man isn't there."

    Nope, what I said is that there is no clear and concrete evidecne to REFUTE the tradtion that Mark wrote the Gospel of Mark.

    Since you mentioned the website I posted:

    What internal, indirect evidence there is for the authorship of the Gospel of Mark agrees with the external, direct evidence. (John) Mark, being a resident of Jerusalem, would have been a Palestinian Jew, having Aramaic as his first language. The conclusion follows that (John) Mark wrote the gospel that bears his name.

    That is the opinion of the writer on that site and while I may not agree 100%, my point is that their is more evidence for Mark wrting the original than there is for someone else and until the evidence is refuted by more subdtansial and concrete evidence to the contrary,all you have is conjecture.

    Based on what we have, the simplest views is that Mark wrote the original in whatever form it may have been and it is possible that later copyists finalisized the final format.

    We are right now just talking pass each other and I think it is best to "agree to disagree" on this particular matter so as to NOT highjack the htread further.

    I am not a bible inerrantists (whatever they are called) and I accept that theological writings will have issues and even errors outside the imediate concern of the authors BUT I still find the bible to be very useful and maybe the reason is because I have never been a bible "thumper" like JW's.

    From someone on the "outside looking in" I agree with this statement:

    The question, however, is not “How can I trust the Bible if it does not mean what it says?” What this question is really asking is, “Can I trust the Bible if it does not mean that I thought it meant from my context when I originally read it, before I understood what it would have meant to the original readers?” -- Johnny Miller & John Soden

  • Chariklo
    Chariklo

    Cofty, dear, try looking in the mirror and repeating that.

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