FINALLY! Can you prove God exists? If you can I won't ask again!

by punkofnice 544 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • cofty

    i will look at some things and look at a few book

    Actually that's not enough. Science takes a lot of effort to understand. That's why I suggested you make it a project over the next year or two. The book cantleave suggested is an great place to begin.

    I have been reading books on evolution for years and sometimes I read the same book 2 or 3 times to get my head round it. Even now I am a complete beginner.

    Consider this fact - the evidence that you and I descended from a common ancestor of chimps is the very same kind of evidence that is used in courts every day to convict muderers and rapists and the same evidence that proves paternity claims.

    If you don't accept the evidence for evolution please don't accept a call for jury duty.

  • cofty
    He would continue to have to prove himself to every generation


  • unstopableravens

    cofty, im sorry but i think its just like anything else you can read the bible or evolution and your going to accept what you want, the dna in animals is close because god created them as well he is the creator of dna,i believe faith is given by god,and you need to beg him for it.your conclusion is very biased

  • cofty

    the dna in animals is close because god created them as well

    Lets say we were looking at two essays that had been submitted by two university students. If they were very similar we might wonder if one had copied the other or if they had both copied the same source. Of course its also possible that they just studied the same sources and have a similar way of expressing themselves.

    What though if we looked more carefully and noticed identical errors? The very same spelling mistakes in the very same places in the two texts. What if we found dozens of these and then we even found a much older essay on the internet that contained the very same mistakes?

    What if you were on a jury and an expert witness explained why the DNA evidence proved conclusively that the accused was guilty but his defense lawyer said something like "oh well everybody's DNA is similar isn't it?" You would know the defense lawyer had no interest in the truth wouldn't you?

    What if you were accused of begin the father of a child but you knew you had never met the mother. When the DNA proved you were innocent what would you think if the mother dismissed the genetic evidence in the same way you just did in your last post?

    your conclusion is very biased

    No my conclusion is based on a careful consideration of the facts.

    By your own admission yours is based on religious bias.

  • cantleave

    I think a fair question is WHY should God prove Himself to you?

    Because he gives us a brain to think for ourselves and ask questions, inspires a book full of fallacy and inaccuracy, plants evidence that that is contrary to his creation account and still expects us to worship him.

  • cantleave

    One thing I found absolutely compelling was the evidence for common ancestry through endogenous retro viruses. W hy would God put the ERVs in the EXACT same location of the chimpanzee and human genomes? Why would God put ERVs in the genomes so that all animals look like they evolved?

  • Satanus

    Quite a few creationists use the comparison of stuff made in factories compared to our bodies or whatever. That things we have were made is obvious. However, that our bodies, animals or plants were manufactured is not so obvious. Tracing back their origins, everything originated from seed or something along that line, and then grew. Manufacture has some aspects that are similar to parts of growth processes. However, manufacture is crude and a vastly smaller process than is natural growth. Growth and manufacture are two fundamentally different processes.

    Growth is a process that works from the inside out, like a fractals, or crystals do. Cars, for instance, don't do that. They don't pop off new cars. What is more, growth is an ongoing process.

    Further, a manufactured object like a car can be traced back to a factory. Living things have also been traced back to their origins. That is exactly what darwin did. The result was evolution theory. While the ultimate source of earth life hasn't been pinpointed, as of yet, it could be, soon. No manufacturer has yet been found for any of the earth life forms. Everything is outgrowth of previous iterations.

    I suspect that the earth itself may be found to be the source of earth life, originally. If that proves to be so, that still leaves a creator, a god out of the loop. It also would allow one to trace 'life' and ourselves, through the earth and then, back to from where the earth originated. Scientists have done quite a lot in that area. The trail goes all the way back to the big bang. Basically, the universe itself, if regarded from the outside, would be seen to GROW, under a growth process, instead of a MANUFACTURE process. So, there is still no sign of a maker. There are only natural processes. The universe could be said to be organic. Further, scientists have divined that there are a few laws along which things grow.

    Creationists will jump to the next fall back position and demand from where these univsersal laws originated. They use these few laws as evidence that there must be a lawgiver. That is looking at things in a back to front order. Those laws are a result. They are results of random crashing and banging that churns out universes. Viable universes are viable because they just happen to contain laws that work toward their survival. Then, as in our universe' case, those laws are the fields for growth. Full circle, it goes. We are part of the system, not separate from it.


  • punkofnice

    Ravens -

    if you really want proof beg him in faith to showhimself to you,beg him in faith you want truth

    Did that. He wasn't there.

    On saying the bible is his word........where is the proof? Other religions will say that THIER holy books are his word. Can they all be? Is god really so perochial that he only cares about those that happen to use the bible when he hasn't really done anything to take away the obscurity?

    Faith is one of those things where we use our confirmation bias to justify our own preferred belief system.

    How would a person know that god wasn't trying to tell them to be a Muslim if they were already a Xtian?

  • cofty

    cantleave - ERVs are extremely compelling evidence.

    I also enjoyed reading about pseudogenes - broken genes that no longer work in other words.

    For example u nlike almost all other mammals Homo sapiens are unable to manufacture their own supply of vitamin C.

    The recipe for making vitamin C is in four parts with each step being carried out by a different gene. It turns out that we humans actually have all the machinery for the first three stages of the process but the fourth gene in the cascade has been knocked out of action long ago by the loss of a single letter in the gene known as GLO.

    GLO is now a pseudo-gene, an ancient relic of something that retired from active service long ago. The other genes in our vitamin C factories go on working regardless, churning out their enzymes in vain.

    Now here’s the interesting bit. As I said above, “almost” all mammals produce their own vitamin C; the other notable exceptions are all the primates. When their DNA is examined the reason turns out to be precisely the same as in humans. The exact same single letter of exactly the same gene has been knocked out as in the human genome.

    Only evolution and common ancestry can reasonably explain these facts. At some time in the distant past all mammals had a fully working vitamin C factory. A common ancestor of all primates suffered a mutation, a loss of a single letter in the GLO gene rendering the whole process obsolete for all time.

    There are many other similar examples.

  • Slidin Fast
    Slidin Fast

    "i believe faith is given by god,and you need to beg him for it"

    Er, Errr, so you have to beg an entity in whose existance you don't believe for faith because there is no evidence for that entities existance without being given it by that invisible enttity.

    So to boil that down, the only way to have faith in god is to first have faith in god.

    So to have faith, you neeed faith.

    If you don't have faith, there is no way to get faith. Have I got that wrong?

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