Thanks for sharing your experience. I want you to know I appreciate your frankness.
Thanks for sharing your experience. I want you to know I appreciate your frankness.
NH&H - The Rosicrucians (There are different lodges I grant you), interests me. The thought that god isn't a being but an impersonal force or law of the cosmos.
....................................I'm still very wary though.
And as for God i gave him my sincere best in the W. T
You and me both!
No problem. I do not believe in arguing but just in an exchange of polite honesty.
The best church I ever attended was the Baptist church. I attended a pentecostal church and that's when the rot set in. The speaking in tongues and visions. Complete nonsense.
There was a bloke with bad feet that needed operating on. So 2 old birds had his socks off and were pouring olive oil on his feet and shouting and demanding Satan leave his feet. I thought that of all the mischief Satan could get up to on a global scale why would he mess around with this blokes feet?
I told him: 'Look mate. You really need to get medical help here!'
The 2 old biddies looked daggers at me for not having the 'faith'.
Suffice to say their faith didn't heal the blokes feet!
It was then I surmised that WE MAKE GOD IN OUR OWN IMAGE! In other words we create our own versions of god irrespective of the bible.
<<You are the one suggesting that i'm on the same level as pharisees, and don't deserve proof. Its you, man. Don't put it on me. 'Course, its just a cop out.>>
Actually a good question for every Christian to ask themselves is, "How much am I like the Pharisees?
<<I'm not important enough. Got it.>>
Wrong gospel Satanus. Christ died for all, including you. So you are infinitely important.
"The point is that demands for proof did not necessarily warrant a response. 'I'll let the risen Christ decide who gets all the proof they need.'
Another cop out. You came on as an advocate for jesus; now, you are abdicating. Jesus said to ask anything in his name, and he would do it. His words.
True, but notice who Jesus was talking to.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
Joh 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.
Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
LisaRose - I must have missed this, there are folk on this forum who think they are Jesus?
Yes, there usually is at least one, they come and go, I have seen the same on other forums. What is surprising to me is that some seem very coherent and intelligent, other than their belief that they are divine. My guess would be that they are suffering from some form of mental illness, schizophrenia or bipolar, but who knows? I am no expert and postings on forums are not enough to know what is really going on anyway. But those two illnesses sometimes cause delusions of that sort, Jesus seems to be the most popular. I wonder if mentally ill people in Japan think they are Buddah?
What would you accept as proof that Jesus rose from the dead?
I don't know, it would be hard to say, but certainly more than the word of four devoted followers. There are so called faith healers working today that could get hundreds of devoted followers to say that they were healed by them. But in reality, it is usually just religious fervour that makes them feel, at least temporarily, that they are better. And of course many of them are just fakes. There are many cases of dead people coming back to life, they are just medical anomalies, they were pronounced dead when they actually were not. It's just very convenient that after he rose from the dead, Jesus only appeared to the faithful, and he didn't look like he had before he died, his only "proof" the marks on his hands and feet. If someone today claimed to be Michael Jackson, risen from the dead, and he didn't look like MJ, his only proof being the word of some rabid fans and a bad nose job, would you believe them?
I am by no means a Jesus hater, I am currently attending a Christian church, but I try to draw a line between my feelings, and actual facts.
If you don't know, then I don't know what will convince you. You say 4 men are not enough; Think beyond the gospel writers; there were actually many eye-witnesses of His resurrection.
“22 “Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know– 23 this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.
24 “But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power.
25 “For David says of Him,
’I SAW THE LORD ALWAYS IN MY PRESENCE;
FOR HE IS AT MY RIGHT HAND, SO THAT I WILL NOT BE SHAKEN.
26 ‘THEREFORE MY HEART WAS GLAD AND MY TONGUE EXULTED;
MOREOVER MY FLESH ALSO WILL LIVE IN HOPE;
27 BECAUSE YOU WILL NOT ABANDON MY SOUL TO HADES,
NOR ALLOW YOUR HOLY ONE TO UNDERGO DECAY.
28 ‘YOU HAVE MADE KNOWN TO ME THE WAYS OF LIFE;
YOU WILL MAKE ME FULL OF GLADNESS WITH YOUR PRESENCE.’
29 “Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.
30 “And so, because he was a prophet and knew that GOD HAD SWORN TO HIM WITH AN OATH TO SEAT one OF HIS DESCENDANTS ON HIS THRONE,
31 he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that HE WAS NEITHER ABANDONED TO HADES, NOR DID His flesh SUFFER DECAY.
32 “This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses.” Acts 2:22-32.
“Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst”.
The Resurrection of Christ: Multiple Witnesses.
“This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses.” “To these He also presented Himself alive after His suffering, by many convincing proofs, appearing to them over a period of forty days and speaking of the things concerning the kingdom of God.” Acts 1:21-22 “Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us– beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us–one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.”
Do you think guys like Peter, who lied to save his hide before the resurrection, would go to his death for proclaiming a hoax he and the other disciples manufactured? Or do you have some other theory to account for his behaviour?
Notice too that Peter preached only weeks after the resurrection saying: “Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst”. No one denied that Jesus was a miracle worker. None of the authorities produced a body to counter the "false" claims of the apostles.
And I quote:
"I have been used for many years to study the history of other times, and to examine and weigh the evidences of those who have written about them; and I know of no one fact in the history of mankind which is proved by better and fuller evidence of every sort, to the mind of a fair inquirer, than that Christ died, and rose again from the dead."—Dr. Arnold.
"I. Proved by the enemies of Christ. (1) It was impossible for these enemies to deny that Christ had by some means left the grave. (2) It was impossible for them to give any other explanation than that which they now invented—that his disciples stole the body. (3) It was impossible for this, the only explanation they could give, to be credited; for the disciples could not have stolen him if they would.
II. Proved by the friends of Christ. (1) The apostles had the most powerful faith in the fact. They were unanimous in their declaration of it a few days after, on the very spot on which it occurred, and that to men who were prepared to do anything to conceal the fact. (2) This faith came in direct opposition to their previous beliefs and worldly interests. They had no expectation and no hope of such resurrection. (3) They had every opportunity for thoroughly satisfying themselves on the point. (4) By their declaration of the fact they induced thousands of the enemies of Christ to believe in it, and that close to the time and near the spot on which it occurred. The early Church universally believed in it; and it is incredible that a myth, a false story, should have So grown up without substantial foundation.—From Thomas' Genius of the Gospel. (5) They attested this fact, not only by their lives, but by their death. (6) Only the fact of the resurrection can account for the marvelous change in the spirit and character of the apostles. The resurrection completely transformed them; inspired them with a new conception of Christ's, kingdom as for all people, with a new courage to suffer for the sake of their risen Lord and his kingdom, and with a new purpose to preach Christ and him crucified everywhere as a spiritual redemption for sin (Acts 2:39; 5:41; 10:43). Neither fraud nor fiction is competent to account for the moral contrast. (7) A singular and significant testimony to the truth of the resurrection is afforded by the change in the Sabbath day. It was changed, not by any express command in the New Testament, but by the almost universal consent of the Church, which could not endure to observe as a day of joy and gladness that on which Christ lay in the tomb, nor forbear to mark as a weekly festival that on which he arose."—Abbott.
'True, but notice who Jesus was talking to.'
Dunno. Who? The 12 or 11 apostles, only? Or, was it a larger group? So, did that apply to jsut those who heard what he said, and to noone else? Or does it apply only to those whom jesus 'choses'? Since enterpretations vary greatly, you need to tell me, in your own words.
What evidence/proof did the early christians offer? Scriptures were only relevant if you were Jews, then you had the Scriptures and the Exodus/Passover as a point of reference for God--(so the story has Jesus talking scriptures to disciples on the road to Emmaus.)
But---- other than fellow Jews the gospel has Jesus saying there was one measure by which non-believers would know who THEY were-- his love would be shared among themselves.
Christians today have nothing much to recommend of their God if they do not have that love. It is tiring to have scriptures researched and diagrammed when love was given as the proof---over and above anything else.
Jesus gave signs and so did the apostles, so say the scriptures. These were the proofs: the blind see, the lame walk, the dead are raised and the good news is preached to the poor. jesus supplied proofs, so say the gospels. The book of acts says there were healings done by the apostles. Does Jesus now expect belief on the basis of threats or just hearsay?
Maybe we who believe don't have the love and so there are no proofs for those who don't have faith. Maybe?
I truly wonder what it means.
love was given as the proof---over and above anything else.
There is no correlation between love and christianity.
Non-theists and people of many religions are equally prone to display love.
humbled said: "Jesus gave signs and so did the apostles, so say the scriptures. These werethe proofs: the blind see, the lame walk, the dead are raised and the good news is preached to the poor. jesus supplied proofs, so say the gospels.The book of acts says there were healings done by the apostles." -- Then why did God decide that the Bible, which can be understood in infinite ways through countless translations /interpretations, and love (of which 'even' atheists have displayed by giving their lives for others..'no man has greater love than this..' as Jesus said) would be able to replace such wonderous and supernatural signs as the dead being raised and miraculous healing in His name, which gave undeniable proof of His existance and blessing? Think about it.