Jwfacts-- More Lies But This Time About The Great Crowd

by Recovery 278 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Recovery
    Recovery

    I asked: How can those who are immortal be guided to the fountains of waters of life?

    EndOfMysteries answered:You will notice in both the old testament and new testament one thing identical to the fountains/waters of life. That they come from under the temple. In the Old testament, this they come from under the temple, one flows to the dead sea and brings life to the sea. Also trees grow on both sides and their leafs give healing to the nations. Jesus says that YOU, your BODY is the temple, and inside you a spring will bubble and give life. Then in Revelation, it appears a spiritual Jerusalem with waters flowing from it.

    Okay, I'm not really sure how this answers the question. Can you possibly rephrase with a one-sentence answer that makes it clear exactly what you are trying to say?

    I asked: 'How will they 'no longer hunger or thirst or experience the heat from the sun' anymore when they have HEAVENLY, SPIRITUAL, IMMORTAL BODIES'

    Reply: As for how will they no longer hunger, experience the heat from the sun, your question alone answered that, if they are spiritual they do not need to eat and the heat from the sun would not harm them. If they are immortal, there is no death.

    The scripture says 'God will wipe out every tear from their eyes'. This is implying that in the present (the vision that John is presently seeing) things such as tears still exist. Pain, mourning, scorching heat from the sun, still exist. The scripture says that these things will be no more. If we interpret the great crowd as inhabiting heaven, they have already received their immortal bodies, and these things do not exist (presently). Therefore, it cannot be said that such things will be down away with, when the interpretation requires that they already have been eliminated. I hope this helps. This is why the interpretation of the great crowd being in heaven poses so many issues that directly contradict the following verses that follow the vision.

    I didn't disagree with anything you said about 1 Corinthians so there's nothing I can really respond to about that.

    What is interesting, is the idea that flesh will live forever and never die, atleast once, seems to be spoken in Is 28:14-15, speaking about those who made a covenant with death, that they would never die, how it's a false teaching.

    Isaiah 28:14-15 "Therefore hear the word of Jehovah, YOU braggarts, YOU rulers of this people who are in Jerusalem: 15 Because YOU men have said: “We have concluded a covenant with Death; and with She′ol we have effected a vision; the overflowing flash flood, in case it should pass through, will not come to us, for we have made a lie our refuge and in falsehood we have concealed ourselves.."

    The people in Jerusalem did not believe that they would live forever and not die. They simply believed that Assyria would not come through Jerusalem and that they would be protected by Egypt. Again, I'm not really getting the flux of your argument.

  • EndofMysteries
    EndofMysteries

    Okay, you asked how will the people be gathered to the waters of life. My question is in the old testament the waters of life are in Jerusalem, they will come from under the temple in the future. Then Jesus said that YOU or his followers are the temple and the water of life will bubble inside of them. Then in Revelation the temple is in heaven and doesn't really explain if the waters are spiritual or in the heaven or flowing from heaven to earth. So can you explain why the waters are described differently in all of those cases, and where WILL the be? Is it on earth, in heaven, or inside yourself? I can't answer that question since the bible speaking of them in each case has them originating from a different source, always a temple, but either earthly, within yourself, or in heaven. The 2nd part, it says he WILL wipe out every tear from their eye and death will be no more, etc etc, the former things have passed away. That "will" doesn't have to mean a future event at the time of the great crowd event. Since it's speaking of the future, the 'will' can mean in relation to reading it right now. The reason I say this,,,,you didn't address any of my scriptures on the resurrection, but out of all of them 1 Cor 15:53-56. "For this which is corruptible must put on incorruption, and this which is mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when [this which is corruptible puts on incorruption and] this which is mortal puts on immortality, then the saying will take place that is written: “Death is swallowed up forever.” 55 “Death, where is your victory? Death, where is your sting?” 56 The sting producing death is sin, but the power for sin is the Law." This great crowd, where "DEATH WILL BE NO MORE", according to 1 Cor 15:53-56 death is no more because they are MADE SPIRIT IMMORTAL. Is there any scripture that shows flesh being resurrected that will never die? When Jesus said in the resurrection they won't marry because they will be as angels, based on those last scriptures the resurrection is into a spirit, and it would make sense then. Also, since it's taught that JW's who live during armagedon may never die at all, if they pass the great tribulation, and remain flesh forever, how does that go with Hebrews 9:27 - "and as it is reserved for men to DIE ONCE for all time, but AFTER THIS a judgement". That's interesting too, it doesn't say they are resurrected and given a second chance, but after they die ONCE, THEN they get a judgement. And those other scriptures say those who are resurrected must become immortal, spirit, then death has lost it's sting. So based on scriptures alone, nothing twisted, just the scriptures alone, they are all showing those who die, that those who get eternal life are those who become spirit. I don't see anything showing a resurrection on earth and living forever on earth after that resurrection, nor a resurrection with a 2nd chance and then judged after that. So I gave scriptures about what happens to those who die and the resurrection. Can you explain why they say that if it's not true?

  • EndofMysteries
    EndofMysteries

    ah sorry, posted in IE explorer by mistake, changing to firefox so future posts aren't bunched together like that.

  • tornapart
    tornapart

    How can something so simple be turned into something so complicated?....

  • Crisis of Conscience
    Crisis of Conscience

    tornapart, I'm wondering the same thing.

  • tootired2care
    tootired2care

    If the bible and its concepts were simple that probably wouldn't be so many Christian sects; because lets face it, nothing can ever really be PROVEN with the bible.

  • tornapart
    tornapart

    The thing is.. if it can't be proven why waste so much time trying to do it? Love your name Tootired2care... often feel like that myself LOL

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    YOur smirky answers always end up with you, a brainwashed JW with little apparent education, determining what is ultimately truth and wha tis ultimately false. Peope post here to share information. No one member here defines absolute truth for anyone else. To put the matter simply, we grant you no legitimacy. YOur are the moutpiece of an organizatin with proven lies and distortions.

    Any idiot can read the Internet and see myriad lies.

    You have no power to decide how we will think. IN fact, your beloved org. would seriously sanction you or disfellowship for merely visiting this site, let alone engaging us. You have NO power here. We don't even care what you believe. Just the fact that you remain a Witness is an excellent reason to suspect your judgment. A brainwashed person cannot read text neutrally.

    I am a trained lawyer when I read text, I do not bring my dissident viewpoint to it. As much as humanly possible, I filter out my dissident beliefs and focus on text. You are clearly unable to come close to approaching matter in an academic manner. I make a point of reading scripture after scripture in consecutive verses for an entire Bible book. Only after I have pondered what the text actually says do I call a nondenominatinal seminary and ask what the leading academic treatise is. To jump right to the treatise or WT, would compromise my reading comprehension. Often, I disagree with authors and write that I find a thought or argument insufficient in the margins. When all this done, then I acknowledge that I must still be filtered some part through my bias.

    We reject your insight precisely because you are brainwashed. You are incapable of evaluation material the way normal people do. I was born-in. There was no choice for me. I suffered deeply. Authorities were mocked. By third or fourth grade, I could realize the brothers were so illterate that they had no grasp of WT doctrine or even the answers to the simplsitic questions.

    This is the hard part for you. Others here, while apostate, don't define my beliefs. I was pinched kicked, reviled, demeaned and the WT doctrine shoved down my throat. Public school was my refuge. A 3rd grade reading comrpehension was enough to prove the WT wrong. My main dispute is not so much with WT doctrine. It is blasphemeously NOT Christians. Christians are Christ centered. We believe Christ is fully human and fully God. This idea that he is a minor angel is completely rejected. YWHW is completely immoral. No love is present. Only terror.

    This is I know my Bethelite father - the basic doctrines do not lead to about 99% of JW culture. They repeatedly go so far beyond what is written in scripture. No one agrees with their history. They are reduced to quoting Nuremberg convicted theologians without even a FN to explain why or even put the reader on notice they are stooping to utter filth to make a point. What bothers me is so many times the truly outrageous comments are not necessary to their main point or any doctrine. They seem to make outrageous comments just to make outrageous comments. Reject govt. authority - Do not use the postal service, commercial carriers, airports, roads, police, fire, -the whole range of govt. functions that protect us from chaos and anarchy.

    Learn some humility. If their are stating the truth, the truth will inevitably win. My mom used to comfot be concerning Armageddon and comments. First, most of the despise teachings were never JW teachings, until Rutherford's putsch. They did not feel warm towards Knorr but Rutherford was reviled by every Bethelite I ever met. Not so much for teachings as his nasty personalith and lack of love. My dad inheirited my great uncle Frank's WT lit from Russell's days. Crosses and occult symbols were all over the place. My mom told me that Christmas was celebrated at Bethel. They even had a tree. WT lit was recommended for Christmas books. My mom lived through four Armageddon dates before 1975. One particular date was very distressing. She was a child and absolutely terrified. Family friends (The WT was a much smaller and warmer community then) sold all their assets nad ascended a mountain in NJ. NO Armageddon. The Society did nothing as tho they came down with no assets. The campaign against all religion and the view that Anglo-Americans interests were Satanic meant heavy persecution.

    No one big at Bethel suffered. No, my relatives went to prison. I can still see prison as noble for your beliefs. Quakers and other anabapstist have been doing it for centuries. Dietrich Bonhoffer was executed in Germany for acting on his Christian beliefs. What is the point of sacrifice when the belief framework changes drastically every few years. I sat in Yankee Stadium when Franz heralded 1975. We were shocked that in light of past history, he would dare set a date. It was thrilling. Unless one pored every word as tho his speech were a legal document, he phrased matters for all to believe 1975 would be the ultimate triumph. Christ would return with very unChrist like happenings. Later, in defeat, the Society said Franz never said 1975. Well, he littered his speech with 1975. As a teenager, though, I realize he had too many contingent events to take it seriously but as a good JW girl, I was terrified out of my mind. Bethel had many reasons to know Witnesses were changing their lives to their detriment to prepare for 1975. Let me large about this. A misunderstanding happened. Any other group would have clarified the notion in their primary publication and also discussed it at the KH level. Later, we were blamed for hearing what our ears heard.

    Legitimacy must be earned. Merely saying you are God Incarnate does not make you say so. And despite your lack of skills, you persist in doing what this wondrous org. tells you to do. It is not your place to argue with us, according to the WT. If you supply us with your name and address, we are perfectly willing to send the GB letters, promclaiming your presence here. Think of all the Bethel brownie points you can get. I would love such a letter from the group to the Presiding Bishop of my church. What a coup. Your beliefs places you in the dark shadows here.

    Your hubris is overhwelming.

  • tootired2care
    tootired2care

    Great question Torn Apart, I guess maybe it's just a great way to kill a bunch of time.

    But I think commenting on threads like this helps put dogmatic people in their place, and helps others to see that scriptures can be read and logically interpreted in several ways; and besides that, who can truely prove that another well documented mainstream interpretation is a lie when there are so many conflicting scriptures?

  • tornapart
    tornapart

    Exactly! I've had too many years being told what I must believe.. it's refreshing to get away from that!

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