Jesus wife fragment is a fake

by Christ Alone 494 Replies latest social current

  • tec
    tec

    Please explain to me why you continue to ignore the comments that I have made about looking at churches and religions was not the entirety of my search---just as studying with JW's was not the entirety of YOUR search.

    I did not ignore your comment.

    You made no comment about looking at God through Christ. In our conversations, you constantly include 'other' things OVER Christ when discussing God. You have also said that it is bs... to look at Christ, over what the rest of the bible says.

    So i am going by your comments.

    Yet you continue to ignore all of my comments that don't fit in with what you already believe about this. Perhaps it is because you cannot accept that someone would look to Christ, try to learn about the father through that Christ, try to see evidence of that Christ, and simply conclude that it is not there? You make many assumptions, and ignore all statements to the contrary.

    So is that it? You realize that if you want to see God, you must look at His Son : the truth, image, and word of God. But you simply have no evidence that Christ existed?

    Because if that is the case, I do not know why we argue so much on the nature of God. We would agree that the nature of God is as Christ showed Him to be... not as the ot, or religions, or Paul, or men, or whatever shows him to be.

    Only Christ.

    Can you understand my confusion when we have these arguments and you say that it makes no sense to do that, or that it is bs... that you do not understand how i can look at things that way... but then tell me that you do not know where I am getting this idea that you did not do that?

    It is tiring. I can understand how this would be hard for you to accept, because you are convinced that Christ talks to you personally. You assume that everyone who goes on the same search will here this voice----or they have done something wrong.

    I don't assume anything. I simply do not see from anything that you have ever said, or that we have ever discussed, that you would look at God ONLY through Christ. That you would put everything second other than the Image that Christ gave of His Father.

    CAN YOU HEAR ME? I have said that my search INCLUDED looking into churches and religions, but it included a great deal more. It included prayer from my heart, deep thought, asking for help and revelation----it included all of that. Try NOT to dismiss this portion of my comments to fit in with your worldview. And the only thing you CAN say, otherwise you would be wrong, is that my heart was not REALLY in the right place, because if it had been, I would have made contact.

    I am not dismissing your prayers, or your asking for help, or anything of the sort.

    And I can NOT say why... that is a question that you would have to ask yourself and Him. Same answer as I gave to Jam.

    I could ask also why some ask and do not hear, and I think I will. If/when I hear an answer, and can share it, then I will.

    Jesus must have a very narrow set of rules to get in touch with him, from your point of view. One wrong piece of information, one idea that is off just a little, no matter the intention, no matter the open heart, and the entire thing tanks. If I go to Jesus and say whatever it is he wants--just show me, and nothing happens because maybe I don't have a good understanding---because THAT is what you blame this entire thing on, that I didn't have a proper understanding--then what can I tell you?

    See above. I don't say any of those things.

    The only thing i said is that you look at other things besides Christ to see God... when only Christ is the image and truth of God.

    I'm not pulling that out of my hat. Otherwise we would not debate about it so often. If you have done that, then it makes no sense to me that you do not understand that I do that. That you would think it is bs.

    Your christ is too discerning for me. You say--go to the Christ--that's what you do for answers! So I say, I did go to the Christ, I asked for answers. So you say---well you didn't have the right understanding of christ when you went, so it didn't work! And I say---what the hell do you think I was going to him for? Understanding.

    I don't say those things. (go to Christ, yes... but not that you did not have the right understanding, or heart condition, or whatever. I cannot know that about you.)

    Peace,

    tammy

  • NewChapter
    NewChapter

    Well I have said, many times on this board, how I would go in prayer and absolutely beg for understanding. I was willing to so whatever it took. I won't search them out, but I'm sure some here remember them. If there is a serious challenge, then I will search them out. There were so many views, and so many different voices (real ones) all saying different things, that I would just pray to know who he really was. I would say, that regardless of anything I may have believed, any misunderstanding I had, any way I had been misled, asking directly and honestly should have yielded an answer---at least according to your formula.

    Of course, I would not have been open to hearing any voices, as I think that is exceptionally unhealthy, but if he was there he would have known that about me, so that should not have been an issue.

    But I suppose, you got the ingredients right and mixed them just so...

    Personal revelation is not evidence of the existense of god, unless you also concede that lack of personal revelation is evidence that he does not exist.

  • King Solomon
    King Solomon

    NC said:

    This thing about Jesus 'laying down his life' is always said with such reverence, and as an argument for doing things his way.

    Oh, if it only WERE that simple....

    The story is God was insulted when some underlings (angels and humans) dared question his authority, and the insult meant mankind incurred a debt, an obligation to God to atone for the sin with a guilt offering.

    However, sacrifices must be suitable ("unclean" animals, or animals that bear a blemish needn't apply; it has to be a first-born, per God's sacrifical rules).

    However, God was willing to pay back the debt owed by mankind to Himself, as He wanted to help mankind out of a jam. But rather than just forgiving the debt, he thought it better to have a perfect sinless angel assume mortal form to serve as the sacrifice to Himself. M'kay.

    Never-mind that mankind or God didn't actually LOSE anything in offering his Son as the sacrifice (so was it REALLY a "sacrifice", if He didn't experience a loss?). Jesus was only "playing" the role of a mortal being, and returned to heaven after portraying the role of the sacrifical lamb: no loss.

    And never-mind that sacrifice involves experiencing a LOSS in hopes of gaining more in return from God, so God covered the cost of sacrifice for mankind? Wow, whatta guy....

    So God sacrificed his son Jesus to Himself, to pay back a debt on behalf of mankind; couldn't He simply have shown debt-forgiveness, and save a lot of hassle?

    And all that rigamarole makes sense to some of you, how, exactly?

  • tec
    tec

    Well I have said, many times on this board, how I would go in prayer and absolutely beg for understanding. I was willing to so whatever it took. I won't search them out, but I'm sure some here remember them. If there is a serious challenge, then I will search them out.

    There is no challenge. At all. Not from me. I am not questioning your prayers or your sincerity.

    There were so many views, and so many different voices (real ones) all saying different things, that I would just pray to know who he really was. I would say, that regardless of anything I may have believed, any misunderstanding I had, any way I had been misled, asking directly and honestly should have yielded an answer---at least according to your formula.

    Okay, and imo, excellent question... kudos for going to Him to understand. (not that my opinion matters)

    Of course, I would not have been open to hearing any voices, as I think that is exceptionally unhealthy, but if he was there he would have known that about me, so that should not have been an issue.

    I'm sorry, NC. But there is your answer.

    "My sheep hear my voice."

    Not...

    "My sheep hear my voice... unless they think that is unhealthy, in which case..."

    I mean, in which case, what?

    How was he supposed to answer you?

    Not that there is not another way to come to understand God and what He wants. The gospels are written accounts of Christ, and Christ shows us His Father. So if you could not bear to hear him (and many cannot, and i am not in the least bit judging anyone for that; I understand it), then some DID undertake writing the accounts down. They're not going to be perfect, because people (and translations and memories) are not perfect. But you could still look TO those accounts of Christ, to his words that others wrote... to see Him, and therefore to see God.

    That man went ahead and took those accounts and decided what was from God, what was inspired, chose what to put in the bible, and then went ahead and created an inerrancy doctrine... and all or nothing book... well I am sorry for everyone that has been misled because of it. For everyone who has doubted, or lost their faith, or been led wrong. But man is in control of what he does, what he corrupts, and who he believes. God sent His Son, and His Son sent those who belong to him, who are willing, to witness to HIM, to the Truth.

    If you are not willing to hear Him, you are absolutley right that he will know this about you. He will not impose himself upon you or infringe upon your choice. It leaves you with those who would witness TO Him though (which unfortunately includes the wolves); and with the written accounts of others who witnessed to Him. (which are not perfect, but they still show Christ, and through Christ, God) So you still have options; they just are not the SOURCE. Test them against love, if you are uncertain. Live by love, if you are still uncertain. Because there is no law against love.

    And maybe you cannot know Him (because of your limitations... and I do not mean that as a judgment... we all have them), but He CAN know you.

    Thank you for continuing with me. Thank you for helping me to understand you a little better. (not that what i think or see of you matters, because who am I? but thank you)

    Peace to you and to all those you love,

    tammy

  • still thinking
    still thinking

    I don't assume anything

    Yeah...you do.

    You assume we haven't gone to this christ concept when we believed. You assume that we haven't done this because we don't hear your voices and if we had 'gone to your christ concept' we would believe as you do. Going to christ has nothing to do with believing as you do. WANTING to believe is why you believe as you do.

    The desire for a god to be real is a powerful emotion. Some people find the idea of no god too scary to even contemplate, they drive the idea from their minds before it even becomes a consideration. Fear drives belief in gods.

    This repetative style of saying you don't say these things and that we should go to your christ concept assumes we never did. It IS an assumption based on our not hearing voices in our head. And not believing in your god. And not doing SOMETHING the right way, otherwise we would hear from your Jesus.

    You assume it is a good thing to hear voices and attribute them to christ...and you support this idea with bible quotes that say so.

    You assume that your god is real. Reagardless of the lack of evidence other than a voice in your head (which is not evidence of anything other than your hearing voices)

  • tec
    tec

    Still, if you read my above response to NC, you will see that I do not assume you did not go to Christ.

    You have a few assumptions of your own in there though. Do you see that?

    Peace,

    tammy

  • NewChapter
    NewChapter

    I'm sorry, NC. But there is your answer.

    "My sheep hear my voice."

    Not...

    "My sheep hear my voice... unless they think that is unhealthy, in which case..."

    I mean, in which case, what?

    How was he supposed to answer you?

    Ah, I see. Well all I can ask is you not say that to too many people. Some are mentally ill, and encouraging this could be very damaging, even dangerous. They don't wear signs. It IS unhealthy to hear voices. But if that is the route your Christ takes, what can I say? I hope you have been thoroughly checked out. I have witnessed first hand how others have been hurt by these notions.

    For anyone reading: If you hear a voice, even if it is a very nice and kind voice, please consider getting checked out. This voice will be very real and doesn't always make one feel bad. Don't take this conversation as validation that what you are going through is a good thing. It is a symptom. It doesn't always mean a profound mental illness, but it can, so you owe it to yourself and those that love you to look into it. Content does not matter. Hearing a voice is a red flag. There are those that will tell you to embrace it, but FIRST, make sure you are okay. Hearing voices is also a symptom of some physical illnesses and even vitamin deficiencies. So don't be scared that mental illness is the only outcome. Check it out. Don't go undiagnosed.

  • still thinking
    still thinking

    So is that it? You realize that if you want to see God, you must look at His Son : the truth, image, and word of God. But you simply have no evidence that Christ existed?

    WOW...talk about twisting what others say...

  • still thinking
    still thinking

    Still, if you read my above response to NC, you will see that I do not assume you did not go to Christ.

    Ok, so do you think I did go to christ but he just didn't respond to me?

  • NewChapter
    NewChapter

    Still, you and I both have a diverse background and were not always JW's. We both opened our hearts and asked that Christ be revealed. He wasn't. Why do you suppose that is?

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