Jwfacts, Why Do You Equate Miracles With Magic?

by Recovery 398 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • King Solomon
    King Solomon

    Recovery said:

    KingSolomon wants to argue over who has the authority to restrict an attorney from practicing law and who does not.

    No, I really don't; I simply pointed out your asinine statement that suggests you truly don't have the beginning of a clue of what you speak. Zilch. Next time, come up with an analogy where you actually understand the mechanisms at play before you propose using it to make a comparison....

    The source of the suspension of the aforementioned license is not crucial to my illustration or the point I was making and therefore it does not invalidate my illustration. It doesn't matter if the attorney is restricted by the DA, the mayor, the governor, Michael Jackson, or the state board.

    The point of the illustration is the VIOLATION of the prohibition, not the AUTHORITY behind it. So here's a simple question for you KingSolomon: If a lawyer's license is suspended and they continue studying law have they violated the prohibition from the state? Yes or no?

    Sorry, but you cannot side-step MY point.

    You mentioned Daniel/Moses/etc, and MY point was that in order to LEARN magic, they had to STUDY AND PRACTICE it; Moses trained under master magicians as taught in the colleges of his day that WERE designed to teach pharoahs, leaders in gov't, etc.

    Just like in order to learn to practice law or medicine, you MUST study and practice it under the tutelage of a mentor before getting a license to practice on your own. In medicine, you get didactic (study) and clinical (practice) training. The same applied to magic in Moses day, as part of magic involved healing (eg the staff associated with the serpent, with Moses' healing of snake-bite victims in the Wilderness, etc).

  • rather be in hades
    rather be in hades

    13 Elders, for instance, are appointed by holy spirit. (Acts 20:28) But not all spirit-anointed ones serve as overseers in the congregation. What are we to conclude from this? Simply that God’s spirit operates in different ways on members of the congregation.
    - 12/15/11 watchtower pg 25

    so did holy spirit somehow decide that it was cool to appoint thsi gy as an elder? did holy spirit make a mistake? maybe it was the communication, like playing telephone. you know how the message always gets garbled in that game right? so maybe it was like the perfect holy spirit saying, "no don't appoint campos, he's a child molestor!" but the body of elders were praying and it sounded to them like jehovah was saying, "yo go'nd appoint campos, he's not a child molestor!" haahahasilly mistakes but damn it's too bad for the kids. oh wait, well since he might not have been abusing a child from the time he was an elder...maybe that excuses it?

    *** bt chap. 5 pp. 42-43 par. 20 “We Must Obey God as Ruler” ***
    Jehovah’s people today follow the apostolic pattern. Men recommended for congregational responsibility must manifest godly wisdom and give evidence that the holy spirit is operating on them. Under the direction of the Governing Body, men who meet the Scriptural requirements are appointed to serve as elders or ministerial servants in the congregations. (1 Tim. 3:1-9, 12, 13) Those who meet the qualifications can be said to have been appointed by holy spirit. These hardworking men care for much “necessary business.” For example, elders may coordinate practical help for faithful older ones who have a genuine need. (Jas. 1:27) Some elders are very involved in constructing Kingdom Halls, organizing conventions, or doing hospital liaison work. Ministerial servants care for many duties that do not directly involve shepherding or teaching. All such qualified men must balance congregational and organizational responsibilities with the God-assigned obligation to preach the good news of the Kingdom.—1 Cor. 9:16.

    call me crazy but it sounds to me like ministerial servants also happen to be appointed by holy spirit. i mean it says these people have to have god's holy spirit operating upon them. kinda nasty though. didn't realize god's holy spirit was a child molestor. i'm not sure how it is god's holy spirit decided to tell the elders that they shold try to blackmail mrs. dorman from getting justice for her son.

  • Recovery
    Recovery

    Showing That Magics Cannot Be Equivocated To Miracles:

    Illustrations:
    You have two cars. They look exactly the same. They are both brand new, being driven for the first time with 0 mileage. They are the same shape, size, color, and have all the same features on the outside. But one is a hybrid car that runs off a battery and the other car runs on premium gas. Now will you ever hear a car dealership call these two cars the same, sell them for the same price, and make absolutely no distinction between the two? Of course not. You would definitely want to know whether your car is a hybrid or a regular car no matter how similar they look on the outside. That is the difference between magic and miracles. On the outside, they may appear to be the same, and allow you to reach a particular destination (supernatural repercussions), but the source (the inside of the car) is what makes them different. That is why one is condemned (magic) and one is approved by God (miracles).

    Now here's an illustration. Imagine that your license as an attorney has been suspended temporarily and you are ordered by the state board to not practice any form of law, as your license is now suspended. Would you violate the law if you study your old college law books, examine precedent court cases, and learn new techniques by watching other lawyers present their cases? Of course not. You were instructed to not practice law.

    You have two identical ovens, side by side. One is conventional, the other is convectional. Surely, when you are baking, you will note that there are some recipes that call for different instructions when using a conventional or a convectional oven. Now why is that, elderelite? In fact when baking, if you are using a conventional oven you might have to use a completely different temperature than if you were using a convectional oven. Both ovens are identical in model and both get the job of baking done. So why do some recipes call for different instructions for two seemingly identical ovens who simply have a different SOURCE of energy (speaking on a molecular level)? Is it because that source is important and makes a big difference?

    So you are saying that how the electricity is used makes the difference and the distinction between the two ovens, correct?

    So I am saying that how the supernatural force is used makes the difference and the distinction between miracles and magic.

    A miracle's supernatural force is under the manipulation of God, a magic's supernatural force is under the manipulation of something other than God.

    The "How" is the defining difference as you showed us quite clearly, elderelite.

    The Bible vs. jwfacts:

    Jehovah says "YOU must not look for omens, and YOU must not practice magic." (Lev 19:26)

    Jwfacts says: All the people in the Bible DID practice magic and there was no distinction between the practice of magic and miracles performed of God, directly contradicting God's word.

    Etymologically Speaking:

    Etymological origins of magic: Middle English magique, from Middle French, from Latin magice, from Greek magike, feminine of magikosMagian, magical, from magos magus, sorcerer , of Iranian origin; akin to Old Persian maguš sorcerer

    Etymological origins of miracle: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Late Latin miraculum, from Latin, a wonder, marvel, from mirarito wonder at

    Lexicographically Speaking:

    After looking up the word magic a thesarus we find the following associated synonyms:bewitchery, bewitchment, conjuring, devilry(or deviltry) , diablerie, enchantment, ensorcellment, mojo, necromancy, sorcery, thaumaturgy, voodooism, witchcraft, witchery, wizardry

    Now logically if two words can be used interchangeably and they have the same meaning, you should likewise find *SIMILAR* synonyms when you look up each word. But such an occurrence cannot be found with the words 'magic' and 'miracle'.

    After looking up the word miracle in a thesarus we find the following associated synonyms: caution, flash, marvel, wonder, phenomenon, portent, prodigy, sensation, splendor

    What If There's No Apparent Distinction From Onlookers:

    We are not allowing the 'onlookers' to define what is magic for us, anymore than we would allow the pagan idol worshippers to define who/what is 'God' for us. That is a fallacious and weak argument, because of course those who believe in and practice sorcery, witchcraft, and other forms of spiritism would only view such a thing as magic as there is no distinction from their standpoint.

    Of course, if I am not a Hebrew, I am likely a pagan who believes in thousands of deities. If we are talking about something of a Biblical theological nature, should the pagan's viewpoint be weighed equivocally with that of the Hebrews? Should it be argued that the Bible teaches that there a hundreds and hundreds of 'God's' because many pagan deities are mentioned and when many miracles were performed, independent observers couldn't attribute the difference to Jehovah or one of their gods? Of course not. This isn't about neutrality from a certain individual's standpoint, but this is about the distinction that the Bible makes for us. We could argue in circles all day long about what consistutes a miracle and what consistitutes magic, but when we are speaking from a strictly Biblical perspective, the distinction between the two is made clear.

    Use of a Similar Adjective (Miraculous):

    We have now moved from the realm of nouns to the realm of adjectives. This is where the distinction becomes muddy because the practice itself is not being described, however, a description of said practice is being described. Let me illustrate it for you. You have two words of a religious association: bishop and minister. Now I'm sure if you go to the dictionary you can find that both nouns can be described as 'religious', perhaps even more specificially having to do with 'Christian religion'. Would you conclude that the word minister is the lexicographical equivalent of bishop and that they should be used interchangeably because as adjectives they are described using similar words? Of course not. A minister can simply be defined as a preacher or a servant, while a bishop MUST have some form of ecclesiastical authority, yet they are both described and related to a religious nature. I hope this helps.

    Casting Spells?:

    There are those that will argue that the use of amen is essentially the same as the use of abracadabra. But is this really the case?

    This word in both English and Greek is a transliteration from the Hebrew 'a·men′. The meaning is “so be it,” or “surely.” The Hebrew root word from which it is drawn ('a·man′) means “be faithful; be trustworthy.” When a person says something that is agreeable, the term "amen" is often used.

    Now if someone says something that you agree with, are you likely to say abracadabra? Why or why not?

  • Finkelstein
    Finkelstein

    Interesting progression of thought. If the bible is to be used to distinguish miracle from magic, how could we evaluate a modern miracle? From God or from Satan?

    Neither actually for nothing spiritually (magically) does ever happen in reality jgnat but shush don't tell Recovery

  • rather be in hades
    rather be in hades

    i still don't understand why your spirit directed organization is appointing child molestors as elders.

    ifthe difference between magic and miracles is the source of the divine intervention, then it seems like your spirit directed organization is being directed from a very bad source...

    care to explain?

  • breakfast of champions
    breakfast of champions

    RECOVERY - just in case you didn't know, you get double time-and-a-half for witnessing on apostate boards. If anyone questions you on it, it's found on page 137 of the "Shepherd the Flock" book.

  • King Solomon
    King Solomon

    RBIH, that's OT to this thread (magic, not child molesters).

  • jwfacts
    jwfacts

    As an aside, thank you for assisting getting my ranking up on Google. It had no google ranking before you started this thread. Now it ranks on page two. Do a search on the very generic term great crowd, and now my article is number 1 on google. So please keep dissecting my articles, as these JWN threads are not ranking high on google, but it does improve my site results. You are helping get this information in front of JWs that may otherwise have never seen it. At least the GB are correct in this matter, that people such as yourself show not be defending their doctrine online.

    I have no time to respond to any more of your lies on this thread.

  • rather be in hades
    rather be in hades

    coupled with the head witness for the jws admitting that the organization had been prophesying falsehoods and that they prefer everyone marching down the wrong path than for anyone to speak out, it REALLY seems as though the spirit directing the organization isn't god's spirit.

    walsh trial excerpt - baptized bro hayden covington on the witness stand, one of the top legal defenders of the watchtower society, credited with over 30 supreme court wins

  • rather be in hades
    rather be in hades

    i'm not so sure it is off topic.

    we're talking about magic and miracles which is basically divine intervention.

    what then, is the divine intervention used when appointing elders? is it a miracle or is it magic?

    the wts says the organization is directed by holy spirit (aka divine intervention right?)

    so what source does the false prophecies and child molestors appointed as elders come from?

    if satan is the great deceiver, and the organization is deceiving people with false prophecies and i can't see HOW god would approve of a child molestor who was at that time being accused of such activities, being appointed as an ms, much less an elder.

    especially considering god's attitudes towards two consenting adults who are not married having sex.

    so if jehovah REALLY IS directing this organization, then he's a liar and ultimately responsible for every child harmed by these monsters

    or

    he and satan are mirror images of each other bc if satan is the great deceiver, and jehovah has deceived his organization countless times then they're both pretty darn good at spinning a yarn.

    so going back to magic and miracles, we can either say that:

    1. jwfacts was perfectly fine mixing around miracles and magic bc apparently satan and jehovah really aren't all that different

    or

    2. jwfacts really should have used magic bc this organization certainly isn't being directed by jehovah

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