Jwfacts, Why Do You Equate Miracles With Magic?

by Recovery 398 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • King Solomon
    King Solomon

    Not difficult to understand. Generally speaking, in the OT:

    Miracle = YHWH Dun It

    Magic = Satan or other supernatural power Dun It.

    From http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/jms/index.htm

    In the background of what has become known as ceremonial magic is medieval Jewish magic. In turn this was based on the Kabbalah, the Jewish traditions known as Haggadah, and other esoteric beliefs. This is a comprehensive review of Jewish magic from the 10th to the 15th century, including a rich lode of folklore. Many well-known Jewish traditions are explained, such as why a glass is broken at a wedding, and how the expression mazel tov is related to a belief in Astrology.

  • Recovery
    Recovery

    Yes, King Solomon, thank you again for pointing out to us why there is a difference between magic and miracles.

    Not difficult to understand. In the Bible:

    Miracle = YHWH Dun It

    Magic = Satan or other supernatural power Dun It

    I guess it doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand why Jehovah prohibited it.

  • NewChapter
    NewChapter

    Actually, my point was not to point out the differences, but to point out that they are exactly the same. The only difference is who you attribute them to. Magic when done by sorcerers etc is called magic. Magic when done by this god is called a miracle.

    You belong to a horrible, beastly religion that rips families and lives apart. Don't mistake anything I ever say as supportive of that horrible religion or the disgusting book it is based on. You go ahead and throw you children, parents, grandparents and friends away when they disagree with you, and you can hug and kiss your filthy book and tuck it in at night. For myself, I'll throw away the book and the religion and keep those I love.

  • Recovery
    Recovery

    Well your point actually shows that there is a difference between magic and miracles.

    "Magic" is not defined as "an event that is contrary to established laws of nature...". It is entirely different.

    As your definition showed us, magic is: "the art, BY USE OF SPELLS, supposedly involkes supernatural powers; also defined AS SORCERY

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    You are not the arbiter for logical arguments in this forum. Your assumption that it is a logical fallacy is a fallacy. If you knew about argument styles and critical thinking, you would question the WT yourself. No one here has ever asserted that they have universal truth, goodness, and justice. Only a few posters think God directs their moves. They are the exception in this forum.

    Let us move beyond your technical faults. The whole body of this forum raises very serious questions about WT lies and constant doctrinal changes. My father was a Bethelite and I heard tales of corruption and distortion (and most of all hypocrisy) from loyal Witnesses who had no reason to lie. I knew them from when I was born until they died - a whole bunch of them from when Bethel was small and everyone knew everyone else. To be fair, I don't think the WT is worse than the Catholic Church - altho the Catholic Church brought us great art, theology, and music. The Church was society.

    I was taught from my toddler years that the org. was Jehovah's and Jehovah was God. Rah, Rah, WT. The WT was pure. No one other org. and tellingly, no individuals since the apostles died, ever had God's support. All was evil and rotten. Poets, healers, storytellers, bards, etc. were all evil. Knowledge was evil. REading was evil. Only the precious WT was correct about anything. Women were whores- a bag of bones and a hank of hair, if I recall my mom correctly. Only a few months ago, Selma and Steve were a great duo. Selma was told to have the hell beat out of here in the great hope that after many years of sustained beatings, her husband might convert. Only the writers goofed and never reported whether his conversion to the Witnesses stopped his brutality. It only encouraged worse bruality in my family.

    I will grant that you are slightly slicker than most Witnesses I encounter, which may say more about the Witnesses I encounter than Witnesses. Common sense makes good argument. Gut feelings.

    You are data dumping and not doing it well. Pulling apart someone's reasoning does not relieve you from a moral duty to make certain that you are correct. What amazed me when I arrived here was the universality of the Witness experience. Witnesses are not allowed to ever speak ill of the WT. I just assumed I was weird and unique. Daily reading of posts reveal common patterns, experiences, and gripes.

    I submit this is the greatest truth that sums up my point succintly. YOu can post here with freedom, moderated by administrative rules set by the forum owner. We do not have the freedom to post on JW.org. God, I hate this place. I believe God gave me free will, not a collar to be yanked by the Wt as though I were a slave.

  • King Solomon
    King Solomon

    Recovery said:

    Well your point actually shows that there is a difference between magic and miracles.

    "Magic" is not defined as "an event that is contrary to established laws of nature...". It is entirely different.

    Nope: magic and miracles are indistinguishable, both being defined by an appearance of the suspension of the observed laws of nature. The difference is who the supernatural force is, whether YHWH, Ba'al, etc.

    As your definition showed us, magic is: "the art, BY USE OF SPELLS, supposedly involkes supernatural powers; also defined AS SORCERY

    Nope. Use of spells for magic to "other Gods" is the same as prayers to YHWH. The prophet Elijah took on the prophets of Ba'al at Mt Carmel, and they chanted, shouted, prayed to Ba'al, slashed themselves. Elijah prayed.

    YHWH = words directed to God via prayer

    Others = spells, words, incantations, AKA prayers directed to other Gods.

    It's the kind of bigotry reflected in choice of words, seen throughout the Bible, eg calling any other beliefs as "pagan".

    PS yeah, what BOTR said: that's not a false analogy in your OP. Sure, it's slightly hyperbolic language surrounding it, but magic and miracles ARE the same, so they're not analogous but equivalents (to anyone who understands the comparison).

  • NewChapter
    NewChapter

    Oh Christianity is full of magic spells and incantations. Prayers. Yelling the name of Jehovah. Hold your arms up and the sun will stand still---that's a spell because it requires action on the part of a human to enact the supernatural. Your argument is basically semantics, and those get tiring really quick. Moses standing in the desert holding a graven image of a snake----idolatry AND magic. Sorry dear, you've been conned. The only difference between magic and all the rest are the words used---the concepts remain.

    And if you want to truly divorce yourself from all magic, then don't be a hypocrite about it. Don't show a Sparlock animation to a group of people that love Disney and the Magic Kingdom! Take off your pagan wedding bands. And check out the superstition within your ranks! Totally unbiblical things that they cling to. Here, I'll share some with you! These are not formal teachings--but I have run into MANY that ascribe to such, and they are not counseled for superstition.

    Don't say your weaknesses out loud! Satan will hear! (guess that leaves out audible prayer)

    Smurfs will become possessed and do crazy things to your kids! (But not the Little Mermaid, Beauty and the Beast, or Alladin!)

    Sparlock is EVIL! But Shrek is OKAY!

    If you have a cross somewhere in your house, you will suffer demon attacks---anywhere from things falling on your head to small things disappearing.

    Hypocrites---that's what you are. You simply pick and choose your magical entertainment and call the rest evil. You pick and choose your superstitions and your paganism, and call the rest evil. It is so beyond ridiculous. WAKE UP. You have not cleansed yourselves of anything. You are just loud about the fraction of things that you have chosen as you all quietly marvel at the magic of miracles and go to the most recent children's movie which almost always contains magic.

    And considering that the WTBTS has just been ordered to pay the largest award from any religious organization to a sexual abuse victim, pretty much proves you are no better than the Catholics either.

    Remember the unclean thing standing in a holy place? (check the Revelation Climax book) It was the UN. It was unclean because it was standing as a counterfit thing to this god's kingdom (the holy place). Yeah. And then we learn that the WTBTS is an NGO member of the UN! What are we supposed to do with the unclean thing? You know the scriptures. Quit TOUCHING it. I'd say signing up with them is more than touching---it has progressed to fornication. Just a bunch of hypocrites, and you find yourself in the sorry position of defending them.

    Each time you come back here, your case gets weaker.

  • King Solomon
    King Solomon

    NC said:

    You simply pick and choose your magical entertainment and call the rest evil. You pick and choose your superstitions and your paganism, and call the rest evil. It is so beyond ridiculous. WAKE UP.

    Dunno if you read the recent Sparlock thread, but the 1994 Awake on magical toys introduced the concept of "magical elements", where some fantasy and science-fiction toys are acceptable as "conscience matters", but just as long as they don't contain an excessive amount of "magical elements". Sparlock was created by WTBTS to depict a clearly-forbidden toy, a wizard (defined as a practitioner of magic).

    Interesting policy shift, in that it seems to foreshadow the allowance of blood fractions, where a little bit of the bad stuff is OK just as long as it's "not too much" (and ironic, when some are claiming the WTBTS is shifting to more extremist thinking by allowing blood fractions).

    But you're right, because allowing fractions of the forbidden bad stuff also opens them up to valid charges of being hypocrits.

  • Recovery
    Recovery

    Bands on the Run has demonstrated exactly what I expected. Instead of arguing for/against Jwfacts (the supposed supreme anti-JW website), all they can argue is that they have many Bethel tales and elderite stories that they can tell us as bedtime stories before we go to sleep. Thanks, but no thanks. All that anger and rhetoric, over what? When you cannot defend yourself, of course the best thing to do is to use diversionary tactics. Thank you Bands on the Run, I will definitely show this to my brainwashed JW buddies and we will have a good laugh at the ridiculousness you just spouted.

    No one is going to defend their favorite website to quote from? Jwfacts? Can you image what apostates would say if a Watchtower came out and said the apostles and the prophets used magic and that magic is okay from God's standpoint. We'd never hear the end of it. If jwfacts is so blatantly deceptive and misleading when it comes to something as basic as magic/miracles, it makes me call into question everything on their website.

    Hmmmmmmmmm. Hold your exJW websites to the same standards you hold every WT article. Scrutinize, expose, and belittle the foolery. I'm waiting. Do I hear crickets in the background?

  • mrsjones5
    mrsjones5

    Troll clock running...

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit