Jwfacts, Why Do You Equate Miracles With Magic?

by Recovery 398 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Recovery
    Recovery

    King Solomon: Sorry, but you cannot side-step MY point.

    You mentioned Daniel/Moses/etc, and MY point was that in order to LEARN magic, they had to STUDY AND PRACTICE it; Moses trained under master magicians as taught in the colleges of his day that WERE designed to teach pharoahs, leaders in gov't, etc.

    Just like in order to learn to practice law or medicine, you MUST study and practice it under the tutelage of a mentor before getting a license to practice on your own. In medicine, you get didactic (study) and clinical (practice) training. The same applied to magic in Moses day, as part of magic involved healing (eg the staff associated with the serpent, with Moses' healing of snake-bite victims in the Wilderness, etc).

    I can study medicine all my life and never have to practice it. I can study how to teach all my life and never have to practice it. Your point is moot and weak. STUDYING does not REQUIRE PRACTICE.

    "Immediately, a battle for the young minds of these exiles began. To make sure that the Hebrew teenagers would be molded to fit in with the Babylonian system, Nebuchadnezzar decreed that his officials “teach them the writing and the tongue of the Chaldeans.” (Daniel 1:4) This was no ordinary education. The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia explains that it “comprised the study of Sumerian, Akkadian, Aramaic . . . , and other languages, as well as the extensive literature written in them.” “The extensive literature” consisted of history, mathematics, astronomy, and so on. However, “associated religious texts, both omina [omens] and astrology . . . , played a large part.” To study "extensive literature" on "omens and astrology" does not require that I practice it. Point void.

    Question for King Solomon: If I study the religion of Islam extensively, with its associated religious texts and its history, am I considered a practicing Muslim? Why or why not?

  • Finkelstein
    Finkelstein

    Is a child who is playing with a toy that resembles a magician (Sparlock), practicing magic or just studying magic ?

    and if so why should a toy of this kind be taken away ?

    Does this question cause you too much cognitive dissonance Recovery for you to answer it ?

  • King Solomon
    King Solomon

    Recovery said:

    I can study medicine all my life and never have to practice it. I can study how to teach all my life and never have to practice it. Your point is moot and weak. STUDYING does not REQUIRE PRACTICE.

    Fail. You're still overlooking that in order to complete the EDUCATION phase of formalized study (as Moses, Daniel, etc did), you MUST practice as a student clinician. In your analogy, if a MD/JD student DOESN'T perform well on their clinicals (the PRACTICE portion, whether working with patients or clients), you WILL wash out of your program and not get your degree (and hence, cannot get licensed). The med school won't waste additional time on a student if they cannot practice, and we had many students who washed out before graduation (25% of the class) simply because they couldn't think on their feet, translating their didactic (book-learned) knowledge into clinical practice to work with real-life patients. They froze, seized....

    Besides, practically speaking, crushing student debt WILL insure that most people who go to the bother of getting a professional education in a field like medicine or law WILL get their license to practice, as that's the payoff for all the hard work and debt (lawyers often fail the bar the 1st time, so have to retake it later, being side-lined or working under another lawyer's shingle until they do).

    Question for King Solomon: If I study the religion of Islam extensively, with its associated religious texts and its history, am I considered a practicing Muslim? Why or why not?

    Your question is moot: as I and Leolaia have posted a few pages (and weeks) ago, the Bible says that Moses was TRAINED in the secret arts of the Egyptians, as a member of the Royal Family, and in the historical context of Egypt that means he practiced to learn (in fact, there was mention of his being a master Magician, even training OTHER magicians; hence his magic was able to beat the Pharoah's court-magicians in the famous staff show-down, although he appealed to the power of uttering YHWHs name as an explanation as to why his magic prevailed, was stronger than the magicians who called on the name of an Egyptian diety).

  • Acluetofindtheuser
    Acluetofindtheuser

    The only reason why God objected to sorcery is because the act created a bond between the human and the attentive rebel spirit. A person who joins with one of these gets a buddy for life, one that follows them around wherever they go. Imagine a rebel angel floating into the camp of Israel with the Tabernacle in site. That would tick God off. These rovers are bored to death and need something to do to pass the time. It seems there are rules of engagement and they can't interact with humans unless we draw close to them.

    When Jesus was accused of expelling demons by the power of the devil he said that was ludicrous because a house divided against itself cannot stand. In other words Satan would not remove his fellow comrades from humans to make God look good. If a voice in your head tells you to do a selfless act to help someone else and it works then probably it was from God or it was just your conscience. If your interaction with the situation was a million to one odd then most likely it was from God. I can't imagine Satan ever involving himself with aiding humans unless it benefited him in the end. Unless your in the camp that believes Satan is really trying to make this world a good place without God. If Satan could resurrect a person would he? If he could he would most likely bring back someone who served him well or even a hot lady he fancied. He might even kill a serial killer if he had the power to do so.

    The amazing magic and miracles of ancient times are a thing of the past. It seems their powers today are limited to coincidence and causality, both for God and Satan. No energy to matter conversion allowed! No new limbs can be miraculously produced by Benny Hinn's side show.

    Or else this is just fantasy and myth and no need to worry.

  • EntirelyPossible
    EntirelyPossible

    I can study medicine all my life and never have to practice it.

    No shit. Kids playing doctor aren't practicing medicine, either. You lose.

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    Still waiting for an answer to my question.

    Epic fail on the studying medicine analogy. My sister studied by practice to qualify as a doctor.

  • Recovery
    Recovery

    Well, duh, of course for a doctor to legally practice/medicine/to be licensed he must practice beforehand. But I can still study medicine (by my own merits, reading books I myself have purchased) and still never 'practice it'. I didn't think that needed explanation.

    I do not see your question Jgnat.

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    Education includes practice. That's the point.

    I'm not going to bother repeating the question. You need to slow down. Look it up. It is on page 17.

  • King Solomon
    King Solomon

    And to bring this forward (since you seemingly missed it), which show Moses STUDIED AND PRACTICED MAGIC, both to learn the proper pronounciation of magic phrases, and rituals involved. The difference was simply replacing the name of the diety he appealed to.

    Acts 7:22: And Moses was learned in all the wisdom of the Egyptians, and was mighty in words and in deeds.

    Moses was reared as the son of Pharaoh's daughter (Heb 11:24) and groomed for leadership; he would be given a thorough initiation into all the most arcane priestly secrets and the mysteries of Egyptian magic knowledge of his time, taught by the Kher Heb (Egyptian high priest) and priesthood in the great universities to those expected to assume positions of authority. This course of study would have included star-knowledge, necromancy, divining, and other aspects of occult lore, appealing to Egyptian dieties.

    Egyptologist E.A. Wallis Budge says:

    Moses was a skilled performer of magical rituals and was deeply learned in the knowledge of the
    accompanying spells, incantations, and magical formulas of every description . . . [Moreover] the miracles
    which he wrought . . . suggest that he was not only a priest, but a magician of the highest order and perhaps
    even a Kher Heb.

    While serving as a commander of the Pharoah's military forces as a young man (as suggested by non-Biblical sources), it is unlikely that he DIDN'T rely on Egyptian magic (appealing to Isis, Adon, etc) to ensure a military victory against the Ethiopians. Moses actually performed the magic tricks he learned FROM Egyptians (where the "staff turned into snake" trick was well-known amongst Egyptians), but the Torah ascribes his more-powerful magic to YHWH. So the same act is performed, but attributed to another source (YHWH vs Adon).

    From:

    http://www.sacred-texts.com/egy/ema/ema03.htm

    From the Hebrews we receive, incidentally, it is true, considerable information about the powers of the Egyptian magician. Saint Stephen boasts that the great legislator Moses "was learned in all the wisdom of the Egyptians," and declares that he "was mighty in words and in deeds," 1 and there are numerous features in the life of this remarkable man which show that he was acquainted with many of the practices of Egyptian magic. The phrase "mighty in words" probably means that, like the goddess Isis, he was "strong of tongue" and uttered the words of power which he knew with correct pronunciation, and halted not in his speech, and was perfect both in giving the command and in saying the word. The turning of a serpent into what is apparently an inanimate, wooden stick, 1 and the turning of the stick back into a writhing snake, 2 are feats which have been performed in the East from the most ancient period; and the power to control and direct the movements of such venomous reptiles was one of the things of which the Egyptian was most proud, and in which he was most skilful, already in the time when the pyramids were being built.

    But this was by no means the only proof which Moses gives that he was versed in the magic of the Egyptians, for, like the sage Âba-aner and king Nectanebus, and all the other magicians of Egypt from time immemorial, he and Aaron possessed a wonderful rod 3 by means of which they worked their wonders. At the word of Moses Aaron lifted up his rod and smote the waters and they became blood; he stretched it out over the waters, and frogs innumerable appeared; when the dust was smitten by the rod it became lice; and so on. Moses sprinkled ashes "toward heaven," and it became boils and blains upon man and beast; he stretched out his rod, and there was "hail, and fire mingled with the hail, very grievous," and the "flax and the barley was smitten;" he stretched out his rod and the locusts came, and after them the darkness. Now Moses did all these things, and brought about the death of the firstborn among the Egyptians by the command of his God, and by means of the words which He told him to speak.

    But although we are told by the Hebrew writer that the Egyptian magicians could not imitate all the miracles of Moses, it is quite certain that every Egyptian magician believed that he could perform things equally marvellous by merely uttering the name of one of his gods, or through the words of power which he had learned to recite; and there are many instances on record of Egyptian magicians utterly destroying their enemies by the recital of a few words possessed of magical power, and, by the performance of some, apparently, simple ceremony. 1But one great distinction must be made between the magic of Moses and that of the Egyptians among whom he lived; the former was wrought by the command of the God of the Hebrews, but the latter by the gods of Egypt at the command of man.

    Later on in the history of Moses' dealings with the Egyptians we find the account of how "he stretched out his hand over the sea, and the Lord caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind all that night, and made the sea dry land, and the waters were divided. And the children of Israel went into the midst of the sea upon the dry ground; and the waters were a wall unto them on their right hand, and on their left." When the Egyptians had come between the two walls of water, by God's command Moses stretched forth his hand over the sea, "and the sea returned to his strength," and the "waters returned, and covered the chariots, and the horsemen, and all the host of Pharaoh that came into the sea after them." 1But the command of the waters of the sea or river was claimed by the Egyptian magician long before the time of Moses, as we may see from an interesting story preserved in the Westcar Papyrus. 2 This document was written in the early part of the XVIIIth dynasty, about B.C. 1550 but it is clear that the stories in it date from the Early Empire, and are in fact as old as the Great Pyramid. The story is related to king Khufu (Cheops) by Baiu-f-Râ as an event which happened in the time of the king's father, and as a proof of the wonderful powers of magic which were possessed by the priest 3 called Tchatcha-em-ânkh.

  • breakfast of champions
    breakfast of champions

    RECOVERY - just wanted to highlight a highly contradictory and controversial post JWFACTS made on another thread:

    " Thanks for. . . attending the OSCE event [Barbara]. I. . . see how they can justify it, . . .their affiliation with the UN."

    Scandalous!

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