5 Reasons Why the DEAF Masturbation Video is different than anything before...

by BluePill2 241 Replies latest jw friends

  • cedars
    cedars

    jmorgan74 - my post may have been blunt and forthright, but I'm perfectly calm.

    Here we have someone who has come from nowhere, provided no background, and as soon as the first major scandal breaks that puts the Society in a bad light he blames it all on those who posted the deaf masturbation on YouTube rather than blaming the Society who produced it.

    True, I may be biased against him - but that is only since he launched a scathing attack on me two days ago featuring intimidation and character assasination, simply because I dared to disagree with him. Before that, I had no opinion on him whatsoever, even if I found him slightly odd.

    However, his comments toward me made it clear that he resents my levels of activism against the Watchtower. Indeed, in his last rant, he insinuated that any who are actively opposed to the Watchtower are immature, and that people should just "vote with their feet" and leave without getting upset. Here is someone who has NO sympathy whatsoever for the Watchtower stance on shunning and what it does to people. If he had an ounce of awareness of this dreadful doctrine, he would realise that the anger and resentment is based on people being forcibly kept from their own families by a damaging cult. He fails to relate to this because he sympathizes with the Watchtower standpoint, that people should leave "silently".

    I'm sorry, but I've read enough of this guy's diatribe to know where his allegiances lie. A Watchtower apologist is someone who defends the Watchtower, and that's what he's doing on more than one issue. He's entitled to do this respectfully, of course - but instead he pushes his opinion with insults and pomposity.

    Booting him from the forum is clearly not my decision, but at the very least I think he needs to be given a break from posting until he learns to stop intimidating and character-assassinating those who dare to disagree with him. I'm entitled to express my opinion, and furthermore, I don't need 2,300+ words to do it.

    Cedars

  • jmorgan74
    jmorgan74

    rebel8, with much chagrin, I try again:

    Let me know what religions do the same and I'll start a thread criticizing them for it.

    Seriously? Uh, ok: http://tinyurl.com/8u6lot3

    I have a problem with "jack off" pantomimes being published on a religious website for anyone of any age to see. Doesn't matter what language it's in--that's totally irrelevant to me.

    Oh, this is for the children's sake then? Just what exactly do you think is going to happen? Children are going to stumble upon an ASL video, watch it, and then be traumatized? What? If they're too young to know what masturbating is, they won't even know what the gestures mean. If they know what it means, they won't be traumatized. You're seriously reaching on this one. Furthermore, this, again is more of an argument against the American deaf people and how they communicate than it is against the Society.

    That's because they [Society ASL intepreters] have no boundaries and common sense.

    Agreed - to a point. But unlike you, I can step outside of myself and see the reasons why they did what they did, and they aren't (entirely) cultish and unreasonable. You don't have to condemn everything the Society does to be able to point out where they are flawed.

    Thanks,
    Jack

  • mrsjones5
    mrsjones5

    KS honey, the pics you posted of special needs children has nothing to do with what you're relating it to. FYI: my brother five years my junior is special needs and my youngest son is on ASD spectrum. I laughed at the wt ASL videos about masturbation because they were and are funny. I will continue to do so but it has nothing to do with the respect I have for the deaf community and children and adults with special needs.

    Carry on

  • jmorgan74
    jmorgan74

    cedars, I see where you both are coming from and I agree with you on how shunning etc has been misused by the Society.

    I think it's unfortunate that this dialogue has become this heated. Part of the problem, as I see it, is how American Sign Language depicts things like masturbation. It is pretty funny. I dare say that most of us laughed when we first saw the Society videos. But from reading King Solomon's posts, he seems more interested in defending deaf people than he is in defending the Society (although I think his comments related to that have been quite balanced). People here seem to want to have their cake and eat it too; they want to make this about the Society, but the part they laugh about has more to do with ASL. I honestly see a problem with both groups. The Society for making such a a big deal of (what I think is) ultimately a minor issue, and the ASL community for creating the situation which basically forces anyone, like the Society, that want to dialogue about the issue with the deaf, to have to use such vulgar gestures. At least, the gestures seem that way to me and even moreso to those like rebel8, who seems to want to ban such gestures for the children's sake, I guess.

    By the way, in all fairness, I think KS did give some background on himself. At least I recall him earlier stating that he was atheist. KS, you and I seem to be kindred spirits. If you ever want to, I think I could get you to reconsider your atheism. PM me if you're interested.

    Thanks,
    Jack

  • cedars
    cedars

    jmorgan74

    But from reading King Solomon's posts, he seems more interested in defending deaf people than he is in defending the Society (although I think his comments related to that have been quite balanced).

    In what way are his comments balanced? He has been unable to present us with ANY evidence that the deaf community is more offended by the video being leaked onto YouTube than it being produced by the Watch Tower Society in the first place.

    If anything, we have had an active member of the deaf community and sign language interpreter come on here and totally dismiss King Solomon's claims regarding ASL - but he attacks this person (as he did me) with vulgar jibes and insults.

    If you took the time to read what some of the JW loyalists are saying on the YouTube video, you would see that most are using precisely the same line of reasoning that KS is using - i.e. trying to switch the spotlight away from the Watchtower to the issue of whether the video's presence on YouTube offends the deaf community.

    I'm glad that you see good things in him, and I'm sure he has many fine qualities, albeit well concealed. Unfortunately I'm personally only seeing someone who is insulting, patronizing and intimidating toward any who contradict him.

    Cedars

  • Paulapollos
    Paulapollos

    Hi,

    Don’t worry, I’m not going to write a whole technical essay, boring the hell out of everyone on the forum, – Glander made a good point a couple of pages back about keeping my posts shorter, and I’m going to take his/her advice. Just a couple of points.

    KS. Your post is without doubt one of the most ridiculous I’ve ever seen on this forum. Take this: “you seemingly are quite clueless as to the history of WHERE that knowledge came from.” No, sonny jim. It’s not that I don’t know. It’s that it’s irrelevant to our discussion. IRRELEVANT. You didn’t get into a discussion with me about the development of research into deaf cognition.

    On that point, so we have evidence today that deaf people with a moderate to severe sensorineural hearing loss are using the auditory cortex, despite the lack of input, during the reading process, as my own research is focused on. HOLD THE PRESSES, JWN!!! I’ve got one word for you, Sherlock - SO? It’s IRRELEVANT TO OUR DISCUSSION. Does anyone on this forum care? Did you and I get into a debate about the merits of either approach? No. IT’S IRRELEVANT.

    As is your little “”Oh my god, I TREAT people, you OBVIOUSLY DON’T CARE ABOUT THEM, YOU EGOTISTICAL SELF-SERVING….” blah blah blah…… Irrelevant, self-serving crap. You have “treated” hearing-impaired patients. And? I’ve worked with as many people who have found your approach useless to their particular circumstance, hence my research. Oh don’t get me wrong, there’s some wonderful people out there, doing tremendous work. And? What’s that got to do with me calling you out? WHO CARES? Not anyone on this forum, which is why it was never mentioned. Your life history is only interesting in that it establishes you have some experience. AND? So did Alexander Bell.

    Let’s get back on track. I called you out on your attitude, the fact you were playing fast-and-loose with the facts, and ABOVE ALL, your accusations that Cedars, BluePill2 and others were “mocking” and discriminating against the deaf. You respond with the crap that you posted above – irrelevant and off topic.

    Your post gets even more surreal – from some random paranoid scenario about “an insider leaking stuff” (does anyone know who the hell this is addressed to? Is it to me? IS KS SAYING I WORKED WITH SOMEONE TO RELEASE THE VIDEO? I don’t know, someone help me out here) to some crap about “your callous, heartless uncaring attitude”? My goodness, don’t make me laugh, you jumped-up little man, with your “Look at me, I save these people, my GOD, it’s like I’m Mother Theresa and Princess Diana rolled into one.” Please. I’ve had to deal with people like you, as has my entire extended family, for generations. Generations of deaf people – and you think we owe you something. Ok Mr Doctor, my god, don’t let me disagree with YOU!

    You know what though, I’m gonna give it to you. You really made me laugh out loud. Amidst your squeals of indignation, you dropped out some real gems. I’m glad you told me that I’m one of “those know-it-all grad students, no doubt struggling with the student loan burden, eating ramen, dealing with your meanie advisors, project deadlines, etc….” and “PP, encountering self-entitled people like you don't surprise me a bit, at my age (and I probably have neuro books older than you, I bet: are you even in your 30's yet?), but empty, soul-sucking people like you nevertheless do manage to DISGUST me, even still.... All you've got to offer is sanctimonious pomposity, when you haven't even earned the degree or experience to back it up.” And let’s not forget “You have got A LOT to learn about how the "Worldly World" works, and you're not making a great impression on me (and let's not blame the cloistered nun-like covent environment of Bethel, m'kay?).” Hahaha, that’s brilliant! You idiot. I wasn’t brought up a JW. I converted after a LONG TIME in the “WORDLY WORLD” (dum dum dum!) and then I spent a long time in, went to Bethel, then I left after a long, long time. I’ve seen more of “life in the worldy world” than you think. Sorry, sorry, not as much as you, of course. ALL HAIL KS!!!!!

    My favourite bit is” So screw you and that hearing-impaired donkey you rode in on, and consider taking him back to Bethel if you truly cannot manage to leave it behind you emotionally, as well. See, you're STILL in Bethel, even if you're body is not.” My word. That paragraph is so stupid, it needs no commentary. OUTLAW said it all really.

    You know, I haven’t got pissed off about much on this forum in over 4 years. But this, this really did make me get just a little angry. “You're….willing to throwing anyone under the bus in order to put YOUR own self-serving ego-driven agenda (destroying the WT) as MORE IMPORTANT than anything else?” I said you throw accusations out, without proof. I was right. 200 posts in 4 years - and I want to DESTROY THE WATCHTOWER!!!!!! My God, for someone on a quest to destroy the WT, I seem to post very little, seeming to concentrate on my life outside the board. What an idi..sorry, I mean, Berkley educated graduate.

    KS. I challenged your painting of others on the forum as “discriminators” and so on. You reacted with fury, and accusations that I am somehow involved in discrimination against my own people. I challenged your “facts” and you responded with an irrelevant history lesson, and your, even more irrelevant, life story. That pretty much sums you up, during this discussion anyway.

    I don’t have the patience any longer to engage with your irrelevant material, your character attacks on those who disagree with you, and so on. I take my hat off to you, Sir. I won’t insult you by saying you have an inflated sense of self-worth. Rather, let me quote another man, whose praise describes you aptly: “"He is a very modest man with a great deal to be modest about."

    PP

  • still thinking
    still thinking

    Ok?...what have those pictures of people at the special olympics got to do with this thread?

    Those people have worked incredibly hard to overcome disabilities and have my utmost admiration. It brings a tear to my eye when I watch their bravery and determination. It really does.

    It also brings a tear to my eye when I watch that WTS video....but it is a different kind of tear....LOL

    They have done nothing brave, or praise worthy. All they have done is use the language of the deaf to promote their bullshit to more vulnerable people. That video is getting the 'respect' it deserves.

    Yes the actions are funny on a superficial level...but what makes them REALLY funny, is the whole picture. Who they are speaking on behalf of, what their message is, and how they are doing it. It is ironic that they have chosen a method that 'shows' everyone what NOT to do.

    Maybe they'd like to bring out a video 'showing' us how not to have oral sex, or maybe anal sex. How about a video showing us how not to do heavy petting? At what point will the WTS say, 'hey thats just not right!" no matter what language it is in.

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    The deaf community does not self-associate with the disabled. They have fought to be removed from disability legislation.

  • jmorgan74
    jmorgan74

    In what way are his comments balanced? He has been unable to present us with ANY evidence that the deaf community is more offended by the video being leaked onto YouTube than it being produced by the Watch Tower Society in the first place.

    Hey, cedars. The comments I found to be balanced by King Solomon were more along the lines of him pointing out the religious dilemma the Society is in. They've already talked about masturbation as part of their message, and they want to reach people, including deaf people, which ultimately has lead us to the situation that we're in now.

    The problem is, people really hate the Society, for reasons mostly unrelated to this one. And I understand why. But this wouldn't be the topic I would pick to illustrate their biggest flaws, unless perhaps I was using it to illustrate more their need for ultimate control over people's lives. The ASL aspect of it is more a criticism of ASL than it is of the Society (ironically, this is what people thought was the funniest thing in the first place, including me).

    Take the ASL part out and the topic is a yawnfest: This just in, the Society discourages masturbation!!!

    Wow, really? You don't say?

    If you took the time to read what some of the JW loyalists are saying on the YouTube video, you would see that most are using precisely the same line of reasoning that KS is using - i.e. trying to switch the spotlight away from the Watchtower to the issue of whether the video's presence on YouTube offends the deaf community.

    I haven't taken the time, you're right. And I wouldn't necessarily agree with or make the argument that the mere presence of those videos on Youtube are more offensive than they would be on JW.org alone. But, I personally wouldn't have uploaded them. I kinda feel bad for the translator guys, they really don't deserve being immortalized on the internet this way. When I really think about it, despite how much I laughed initially, I really feel bad for everyone involved. This really has turned pretty ugly, in more ways than one.

    I'm glad that you see good things in him...

    I see good things in you too, man. Like I said, I feel bad that this topic has lead in this direction. I would bet that if we were all sitting down having a beer, all of us might've said things a whole lot differently than we would've behind the anonymity of the internet.

    Thanks,
    Jack

  • King Solomon
    King Solomon

    OUTLAW said:

    KS..

    You did blow yourself out of the water..

    All those pages and pages of words..

    Then you fall on your sword in one sentence..

    LOL!!..

    Outlaw, it seems the Bible has left you unable to discern the difference between metaphors and literal? *sigh*, OK.

    Donkeys are beasts of burden, animals often used for transporting loads, carrying people, or doing heavy work for the benefit of men.

    Even though PP won't admit to it, she tried to use her association with the deaf community in order to SUPPORT using this video against JWs, on the grounds of some obscure (non-existent?) issue of inappropriate choices made in the video (as if it's a burning issue within the deaf community: REALLY!?).

    Armed with that righteous indignation over the outrage of the WTBTS, she declared this video WASN'T offensive to the deaf community, and gave her blessing to it's use to cause derision, humiliation, and embarrassment to take down the JW cult (in her mind: she thought it would do all that).

    M-kay, there's not much surgical-pinpoint precision (it's shot-gunning), because the video is only likely to embarass the individual (the one you made the cute GIF of), and not bring Brooklyn toppling to the ground, as if Anti-Armageddon arrived. Have you heard reports of a ground-swell or blow-back from the video recently, with JWs fleeing from the KHs in horror on a Sunday afternoon to protect the kids from discusion of masturbation? Maybe to take them home, and ENCOURAGE them to masturbate? Burn those nasty DVDs? NOPE. Crickets chirping.

    NOW, if you don't get that metaphor of directing the donkey to charge into battle to tilt at windmills (oh, there's three mixed metaphors: I shouldn't have done that!), then you seemingly haven't taken a basic college-level course in social sciences and not been exposed to the concept of 'co-opting': a sub-group infiltrates or commandeers control of a social movement/cause with a different agenda than the platform upon which it was founded.

    The phenomenon is not uncommon: if you had ANY interest in the issues facing the hearing- or visually-impaired before making your cute masturbation GIF of the goofy-looking deaf guy, then you'd KNOW the issue and debate is long-standing within these groups. You clearly didn't, so there ya' go! You failed your own Shibboleth Test, which indicates your concern is no more than trying to win an argument on the Net. You also win the attempted co-opting award!

    (BTW, co-option is often heard when discussing groups like moveon.org, the Tea Party, Occupy Wall St, or in Marxist communist history; it's a dynamic that's not exactly breaking news to anyone who's aware of the shitty games and power struggles that people play in "The World".)

    Those co-option issues are not going to be solved here on JWN, so it's well OT.

    But heck, let me bottom line this one for you:

    I could give a flyin'-flip what YOU, sitting on your computer playing with GIFs, think about what I do with my life, and why I do it. Got it? I'm NOT acting as "a protectorate of the deaf" etc. I object to being accused of being a JW apologist, and of being accused of speaking for a community when I never did, and in fact: THAT'S the POINT. NO ONE is allowed to determine what causes offense to others, as what is not offensive to one person may not be offensive to another, and hence it's good to not go out of one's way to offend (for no good reason).

    Being accused of co-opting the deaf community to protect them was EXACTLY what I WAS accused of by PP (supposedly to squelch their suppression); fact is, she was doing EXACTLY THAT by declaring the video wasn't offensive to the deaf community. She took an extreme position to counter what she MISUNDERSTOOD as my position (project much?), and that made HER do exactly what she accused me of. Damn straight, I find the accusation to be insulting, as it's an ignorant thing to claim to speak for others (esp when you're not deaf).

    ow, you don't really think anyone gets anywhere in life if they allow mouth-breathing MORONS and foot-draggers/naysayers block their path? Really??? There's always a line of nitnoid naysayers willing to to sneer at you and say, "you can't do THAT!".

    If you accept other's criticism without questioning it's validity (cult, anyone?), then you've lost even before you got off the starting block.

    So thanks, but I'll consider the source of your criticism as from someone who MAY have ulterior motives? Dare I suggest that? Hey, I accepted long ago some people giggle at the jerking off sign, or spends hours making animated GIFs of the same. Hey, you provide valuable comic relief to JWN site (and don't be upset, but not everyone is going to like all of your work, all of the time: no one bats 1,000).

    Oh, yeah: I've had patients vomit, disrobe (when you didn't ASK them to!), piss in the chair/sink, crap their pants in the chair during exams, and at first it was disconcerting ("is this really happening?"). It gives the staff alot of giggles afterwards (except the poor tech who has to clean it up, wearing gloves and spraying cavicide!), but it needs to be handled in a professional manner so as to AVOID PATIENT EMBARRASSMENT. Human bodies are funny things, and have a mind of their own...

    I don`t know how posting pictures of special needs children will help.

    Another point you failed to understand? Read what I wrote VERY CAREFULLY, and try it again.

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