David Cameron Confronts Cristina Fernandez (UK v Argentina)

by cofty 182 Replies latest social current

  • cedars
    cedars

    I love military aircraft. Even as a Witness youngster, they were a forbidden obsession of mine.

    I loved the Harrier too. I also loved the old WW2 planes. I used to live near an airshow and for some reason we weren't allowed to go in, but we cycled close to one once, and a Lancaster flew over - so low you could almost touch it! Unforgettable.

    In more recent times I was up walking in the hills near where I used to live (only last year in fact). Imagine my surprise when an Apache helicopter gunship flew over! Aside from a UFO, it was the LAST thing I expected to see fly over me whilst out walking in the North West. An awesome machine.

    Cedars

  • cofty
    cofty

    The Tornado is the plane we see most often over our house, I can hear one now as I type. Sometimes we get a number of them at once practicing air to air dogfights. I have only seen an Apache once, it flew over our house about 6 months ago and then again about half an hour later. I can't begin to imagine how frightening it must be for the Taliban when that thing turns up.

    My son has just moved to RAF Leuchars, in fact today is his first day. They hold a big annual air show so I am hoping to go this year.

  • Chariklo
    Chariklo

    Where'd you find that map? Most maps have 'Islas Malvinas' in brackets underneath 'Falklands'.

    Interesting reaction.

    I just Googled "map of South America" and it was in the first set of 4 images that came up.

    The people might be yours, but the land is ours.

    Nope. Not true.

    It's the first time (1833) that you keep on forgetting.

    Oh no. We do not forget. But our memory is informed by fact, by document, and the historical record, as even the most superficial search on the web will verify. If anyone wants further info and access to the history, please feel free to PM me, to save space here and avoid boring everyone else, or look back to earlier Falklands threads.

    Cofty and others, I love all the aeroplane info you've put above. I used to watch all the planes flying over, on their way out to the Falklands, back when it all happened, and knew many who were very closely involved, including a nephew.

    Edit:

    LMSA, if you look more closely at the map you queried (kindly offered me by Google on a simple search), I think 3rd or 4th on the page, you'll see it is a Magellan map. Magellan maps became maps.com, a site registered and administered from California, and with a global rank of 38,464 .

  • Las Malvinas son Argentinas
    Las Malvinas son Argentinas

    jamesmahon: Apparently you need to be led to water in order to drink. I did answer your question. You just don’t understand it when you compare it to your own personal goals, ideals, and ambitions. You can’t look at this in a conventional manner and apply what your logical principles would dictate. It would be like me trying to speculate why you like to play chess, role-playing games, or whatever it is you do. You are trying to get me to concede a point which is already patently obvious. Short of land speculations or economic investments in the islands that I would personally have to have, the transfer of sovereignty would not make an immediate impact on my life. The islands are a national humiliation, and to remove that stigma would restore some of the original ideals of our nationhood. In our song, the Malvinas March, it speaks of national honour, redemption, and restoration. Like yours, ours is a proud nation that is proud of our southern location, our culture, environment, and contiguity, which the Malvinas form a part. I can explain it further, but I’m afraid you still won’t get it (or choose to not want to get it). After all, you label my feelings as ‘selfish’ when I am trying to explain to you our concept of national honour and pride. Don’t try to impose your own thinking upon mine and assume that what you would naturally think or act would automatically apply to me. I grew up in a different environment and had my own set of experiences. Did your country once have Germany as a possession? Ours once had the Malvinas until they were taken from us.

    cofty – It doesn’t take an apt pupil of history to know what the islanders feel. I’ve acknowledged that time and time again. Two wrongs certainly don’t make a right. Unfortunately this leaves our side as the one who makes the complaints, brings documents to world meetings, and left to ponder our actions in 1982. You might have us in check, but you made an illegal move early in the game which directly led to this advantage.

    Charliko – I’m sure glad we have your superior researching skills in order to find and post for our benefit a map of South America. I don’t think I could have found one without you. I took your advice and googled the word “South America” and clicked on ‘Images’. Your map did indeed come up, but also several with the following:

    Falkland Islands (Islas Malvinas)

    Administered by UK, Claimed by Argentina

    I recommend you attempt an exercise in multi-culturalism. Try typing “America del Sur” in the same google window, and see what you will find. After all, “America del Sur” is what the vast majorities of the people in South America call it (Ámérica do Sul in Portuguese) Virtually all say what I posted earlier, and some even go so far as to not even mention the term “Falkland”. Since the only English speaking populations in South America are Guyana and the Malvinas, I think ‘America del Sur’ is a reasonable research term.

    Our land, your people is relative to the reader. Not true in your case, true in my case. Your premise is predicated on your belief that Argentina does not have a valid claim, while mine asserts the opposite.

    Unfortunately your ‘facts and documents’ omit the damning information found in the British Foreign Office archives. Lord North renounced all claims to the islands in the 1700’s. The British head of the American office commissioned a study which found that there was no formal British claim to East Falkland until 1829, shortly before the invasion. These are my facts and documents, and my sources are two British authored books about the Malvinas – one by Simon Jenkins and Max Hastings “The Battle for the Falklands”, and the other by the Sunday Times of London “War in the Falklands”. While you casually mention ‘facts and documents’, you provide no bibliographical sources. Did you ever go to college? Your paper would be returned to you with a stern admonition.

  • cofty
    cofty

    The islands are a national humiliation, and to remove that stigma would restore some of the original ideals of our nationhood

    Work at turning Argentina into a model of a modern democracy and maybe your national pride will no longer depend on reclaiming the Falklands.

    If the UK had acted as Argentina did in 1982 I would be trying to avoid the subject.

  • botchtowersociety
    botchtowersociety

    I've seen all the US types at airshows (including British designs used in the US like the Harrier), but I've never seen a Tornado or Typhoon.

  • cofty
    cofty

    My son's RAF base had a family day last summer and there was a display including a Typhoon. It is incredibly agile. Its best trick is to come in low and slow and then pull back and go vertical.

  • jamesmahon
    jamesmahon

    LMSA - well done in dancing around still not actually aswering the question beyond:"having a rock that some people who lived in my country laid claim to nearly 200 years ago for a few years will mean my country will have its national pride restored and this is turn will make me happy". If this is what you are saying then no I don't understand you because it must be a strange world you inhabit.

    If I am not allowed to use logic in a conventional manner to discuss this then what do you want me to do? Get all emotional and irrational? If this is how people in Argentina are thinking about this it is chilling, really chilling. But if you want to, I might as well say "we kicked your ass 30 years ago and that makes me really proud of our military might and to hand them back to you would be a national embaressment and an insult to the memory of the soldiers who died". I don't think this but if all this is about is irrational national pride then two can play that daft game.

    The basis of your desire for these islands to be considered part of Argentina seems to stem from Lord North renouncing the claim to the islands under military pressure and then Britain took them back with force 60 years later. All seems a bit murky, but to be honest it is completely irrelevant. If there had been a full blow Argentine town on the islands for 300 years and the British had come and killed everyone before setting up their own colony I would still argue that 200 years later it is the people living on the islands then that get to decide their own destiny. If you don't think this is the case then America should hand over governmental control to American Indians and Australians to the aborigines. It may be the morally right thing to do for the people disenfranchised/murdered/evicted in the past but it is hardly fair for the people who consider that their home now. And if not that then America better give back California to Mexico.

    And that ultimately gets to what I think people on here just don't get with you or the Argentine position on the Falklands. History tells us that it is not fair to impose rule on people that don't want it. And yes, a lot of that history is due to the way the British, Spanish and French behaved but can also be seen today in the way America is viewed. But you seem to think it fair to do that now to a few thousand people on a rock because it will make you feel prouder and therefore happier to be from Argentina. All I want you to do is admit this is how you feel. Then debate is over because if someone thinks that irrationally (and dare I see quite selfishly and in a way, well, despotically) there is no way I can have a conversation with you.

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    I hope Argentina never develops a nuclear bomb. They are off their rockers.

  • Las Malvinas son Argentinas
    Las Malvinas son Argentinas

    jamesmahon: You asked me how I personally would benefit from having the Malvinas returned to Argentina, as well as why I feel so strongly about a ‘rock’ (your term, not mine). I answered it several times already, but you do not wish to accept the answer as given. So much for dancing around. I must admit to not having taken it completely literally as asked at first since it seemed to be a silly and somewhat loaded question. No, the return of the Malvinas to my country is not going to be a life-altering event for me. You really spent all that time typing just to get that answer? How this appears to me is some sort of lame ruse to get me to articulate myself on my position, which has been done several times over and which you already don’t support, ridicule it, with the added caveat that I am somehow avoiding the direct question as posed. So your strategy here is to ask a secondary question about my motivations, while waiting to jump on them as irrational with your standard boilerplate logic and snide remarks. Does it really matter to you what my motivations are? How does this have to do with the Malvinas debate in a conventional sense? Irrational national pride is a conclusion you are coming to according to your own speculations. I think it’s irrational to have a Queen who reigns but not rules. My opinion, but I don’t live there and so my opinion is not of much weight on that matter. Likewise, you hardly know anything about Argentina and want to jump the gun by pointing fingers and naming names. There is a principle in play here. In the Malvinas War and in the first Gulf War, which both of our nations participated in, there was the stated principle that military aggression should not be rewarded with territorial gain. I’m motivated by the double standard of 1833 and 1982, and the ignorance of people who see no connection between the two.

    But I am heartened by your ever so subtle set-up of your eventual exit from this conversation. You unilaterally declare that you can’t have a conversation with me. I am selfish and despotic. There must be quite a lot of people like that out there, since there are many on the world stage with varying credentials that support what I am saying. But since they don’t agree with your viewpoint, you stick to your labels and offer no documentation to support your claims. It’s a purely lame method of argumentation, and is one built on nothing but arrogance and false reasoning.

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