Early Civilizations and Bible Chronology

by xelder 109 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Larsinger58
    Larsinger58

    JWFACTS: "Carbon dating is very accurate back to at least 10000 years, with one verification being tree rings. There really is no doubt that civilisation dates back 10,000 years, disproving a literal interpretation of a 6000 year old Adamic creation story."

    As I noted, C14 dating is not effective earlier than about 1500-1600 BCE at which point it tends to present earlier and earlier dates out of sync with dentrochronology. David Rohl has charts regarding this. From 1500 BCE and after, however, you have good matches with dendrochronology.

    Further, my statement about not seeing any science that would support of disprove the Bible was a statement for events prior to the MBA Period, obviously. But just because I haven't seen it in the mainstream does not mean some new evidence or even old evidence hasn't come across my research desk. So, therefore, if you know of something specifically, please share it, even if it is not C14 dating. But again, C14 dating is not considered credible past 1600 BCE a which point it begins to deteriorate. Thus C14 dates above 1600 BCE are considered unreliable and spurious and thus present no critical challenge to the Biblical timeline. But please provide speicif C14 references for the 10,000 years and we'll discuss it.

    Thanks. C14 dating from the 18th Dynasty is considered credible and confirmatory of the current Egyptian timeline for this period. If you can give a link or more information on the 10,000 dated items that would be great. Thanks.

    LS

  • transhuman68
    transhuman68

    edit: LOL. Hit him with it, sizemik!

  • sizemik
    sizemik

    Radiocarbon dating (sometimes simply known as carbon dating) is a radiometric dating method that uses the naturally occurring radioisotopecarbon-14 ( 14 C ) to estimate the age of carbon-bearing materials up to about 58,000 to 62,000 years.

    The raw radiocarbon dates, in BP years, are calibrated to give calendar dates. Standard calibration curves are available, based on comparison of radiocarbon dates of samples that can be dated independently by other methods such as examination of tree growth rings (dendrochronology), deep ocean sediment cores, lake sediment varves, coral samples, and speleothems (cave deposits).

    The 2004 version of the calibration curve extends back quite accurately to 26,000 years BP. Any errors in the calibration curve do not contribute more than ±16 years to the measurement error during the historic and late prehistoric periods (0–6,000 yrs BP) and no more than ±163 years over the entire 26,000 years of the curve, although its shape can reduce the accuracy as mentioned above. [ 18 ]

    In late 2009, the journal Radiocarbon announced agreement on the INTCAL09 standard, which extends a more accurate calibration curve to 50,000 years.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiocarbon_dating

    Lars . . . you live in a comfirmation bias bubble . . . do some proper research.

    I hope that clears that up . . .

  • jwfacts
    jwfacts

    Thanks Sizemilk for addressing that question.

  • tec
    tec

    Shades, I don't think it matters. It doesn't have to all be literal for it to share truths. If some people have to see something as literal in order to understand the moral or the lesson or the truth being taught... then so be it. Some see and understand better that way. If someone has to see something as a metaphor in order to understand that same moral, or lesson, or truth... then so be that too. The truth being shown/shared/taught... that is what's important. Easy to lose sight of that truth when we're concentrating instead (and arguing as some do) over whether something was meant to be literal or figurative.

    You may already know this. I just wanted to share it with anyone who might need to hear it.

    Peace to you,

    Tammy

  • sizemik
    sizemik

    LOL trans . . . I saw your link after all my C&P . . . then thought stuff it . . . jobs done now.

  • OnTheWayOut
    OnTheWayOut

    Sizemilk, the earliest civilizations could have been older and different. My random copy and pastes were an example that there were civilizations long before the Bible says so. The writers only knew the legends and not much about the civilizations or else they would have moved Adam and Eve back further to incorporate those people.

    But I am no expert. I bow to your input.

  • designs
    designs

    The story of Adam and Eve as a good campfire morality tale can make some sense but as happened the christian writers saw something different in the story and established the doctrine of Original Sin out of it and attached their version of a Messiah to said idea. As can bee seen from archeology Adam and Eve were not the first humans thus what happens to the foundation of christianity with its need for Original Sin.

  • ninja_matty69
    ninja_matty69

    Oh my giddy aunt i cannot believe people still accept tree ring data as a serious counting method. One might as well count sand grains for all the good it will do. Bearing in mind that carbon dating is corroborated by the tree ring data this pretty much disqualifies carbon dating too. Dendrochronology (the counting of rings) if you are not familiar with it is based upon ppl counting layers in the tree that can be several times thinner than a piece of paper. In some cases they claim to be able to count several thousand in one tree length. So imagine counting several thousands pieces of very very thin paper (sometimes several times thinner than paper remember) all bunched together. Now this is only the odd tree like those alpines or whatever they call them. Which are little or no use in dating the pyramids etc. In the case of the latter what they need to do is compare several trees or perhaps dozens depending on how far back you want to go. So if they are trying to date something back to say 2500 bc they need several trees that overlap. So say you get 50 trees that are at least 100 years old each then you get an overlap history from each of these trees. No mean feat this. Now were are they finding these trees. They no doubt have to check hundreds of tree remains. Tree remains from the past couple of hundred years is probably easy to find but find links all the way back to 2500 bc is going to be very difficult. Not only this but they have to be from the region in question. Its no good comparing a tree sample from egypt with one from england. completely different climates will lead to completly different tree rings. If all of this is possible then yes you would have a basic timeline. But two more final problems. Firstly multiple tree rings can occur in wet years. So now you've managed to match your super thin lines with dozens of other trees and your sure mind that you have not made a mistake (after all one half a milimeter ring is totally different from another half a milimeter ring) have you factored this in? Maybe your 4500-5000 year history is really 3000 years if there were many wet years? You follow? Now finally the tree ring data is only so good as to tell you when something died i.e. the tree stopped growing. How do we know that the timber used in said building was used immediately. I mean we may find and be absolutley sure the timber in a building is 5000 years old. How do we know it wasn't reused 1000 years later? We cannot be sure can we. Next i will give a few quick words on egyptian history based upon memory - i do not have all my facts to hand. The king lists are based upon several different king lists. Karnak, Turin, Palmero, Abydos, Manetho, etc. etc. If you add these all up and jumble them around then sure you could make them fit a few thousand years of dynasties meaning some conflict with the biblical flood 4500 years ago because modern secular history shakes these lists up and goes back around 5000 years starting mind with some real legendery characters (if you want to believe). Check them out you wouldn't believe it. I mean sure Min or menes is the first at this point but check out his dad? Seriously Ra? The scorpian king? are they joking? how is min more believable than these? Now i did some math on these king lists but i do not have it to hand. The turin king list has something like 300 kings. It is the basis of the modern secular chronology. Without it we would wipe probably 1000 years + off the chronology. Many of its kings are not supported by any of the other king lists. Most of the other king lists corroborate a part of the turin king list and corroborate each other for the first several dynasties. From memory manetho who lived millenia after these kings wrote about a later set of dynasties (i think) corroborating elsewhere kings in the turin list not supported in others. Now all these lists are at least 40% wrong i.e. they have gaping holes when compared to each other. But if you take the turin list out they are maybe 10% wrong. I cant remeber the exact math.Guide only. Now the really intresting thing is that the turin king list, which the entire chronology rests on mind, is not carved in stone like many of the others. Its papyrus or similar. But get this when they took it back to turin and opend the casket it was in it dissintegrated before their eyes. They had to try and rebuild/copy it from hundreds of pieces. You catch me? you take this half destroyed half made up list away and the other lists agree with each other. You leave it in in its destroyed fashion and it puts all their lists out by millenia. Also check out herodotus. His king list and version of events also conflict with the other king lists in parts. But he pitches ramases only a few pharoahs down from cheops (200 years). The turin list puts rameses about 1500 years away from cheops who built the first big pyramid (or so they say). Who do you belive then herodotus or turin (the rebuilt one)? I have loads more info and can support my statements above further but need to sleep now. PM me or reply if you want more.

  • I Want to Believe
    I Want to Believe

    @ninja_matty69, you try to bring out difficulties in dendrochronology, but your "reasons" why it shouldn't be trusted are laughable.

    " imagine counting several thousands pieces of very very thin paper (sometimes several times thinner than paper remember) all bunched together." Yeah, that's fairly easy to imagine; easier, in fact, than imagining 2 million pixels on an HDTV being counted 60-240 times every second. Computers are amazing aren't they?

    "They no doubt have to check hundreds of tree remains." Yes, they do. And they do just that.

    "but find links all the way back to 2500 bc is going to be very difficult." It is difficult; that's why professionals spend years and years doing it. Thanks for acknowledging their hard work.

    "Not only this but they have to be from the region in question. Its no good comparing a tree sample from egypt with one from england. completely different climates will lead to completly different tree rings." Right again. That's what they do.

    "Firstly multiple tree rings can occur in wet years. So now you've managed to match your super thin lines with dozens of other trees and your sure mind that you have not made a mistake (after all one half a milimeter ring is totally different from another half a milimeter ring) have you factored this in?" Yes, they do factor that in.

    Did you even bother to read about the subject? Here, let's consult wikipedia real quick:

    "Trees from the same region will tend to develop the same patterns of ring widths for a given period. These patterns can be compared and matched ring for ring with trees growing in the same geographical zone and under similar climatic conditions. Following these tree-ring patterns from living trees back through time, chronologies can be built up, both for entire regions, and for sub-regions of the world. Thus wood from ancient structures can be matched to known chronologies (a technique called cross-dating) and the age of the wood determined precisely. Cross-dating was originally done by visual inspection, until computers were harnessed to do the statistical matching.

    To eliminate individual variations in tree ring growth, dendrochronologists take the smoothed average of the tree ring widths of multiple tree samples to build up a ring history. This process is termed replication. A tree ring history whose beginning and end dates are not known is called a floating chronology. It can be anchored by cross-matching a section against another chronology (tree ring history) whose dates are known. Fully anchored chronologies which extend back more than 11,000 years exist for river oak trees from South Germany (from the Main and Rhine rivers) and pine from Northern Ireland. [1] [4] [5] Furthermore, the mutual consistency of these two independent dendrochronological sequences has been confirmed by comparing their radiocarbon and dendrochronological ages. [6] Another fully anchored chronology which extends back 8500 years exists for the bristlecone pine in the Southwest US (White Mountains of California). [7] In 2004 a new calibration curveINTCAL04 was internationally ratified for calibrated dates back to 26,000 Before Present (BP) based on an agreed worldwide data set of trees and marine sediments. [8] The part of the new calibration curves that relies on tree-ring evidence (IntCal04) dates back to 12,410 calendar (cal) yr B.P. Beyond that and back to 14,700 cal yr B.P., IntCal04 is mainly constructed from 14C dates of foraminiferas from Venezuela's Cariaco basin that are corrected for a constant reservoir age of 405 years. [9]

    Your final "point" is irrelevant, because they don't use dendrochronology to confirm building dates, they use it to cross-referrence C-14 samples of the wood itself. Regardless of when the wood was used to build something, they can check how old it is.

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