What say you Christians ???

by wobble 277 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  Chalam

  I think Michelle has answered Wobble's question already.

  John 3:17-18 (English Standard Version)

  17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

  Verse 18 is quite pertinent all "Jehovah's Witnesses".

  Tammy, my thoughts are "the world" pertains to our world i.e. mankind. Also, it is probably one of those theological nuggets that does bear too much use dwelling upon.

  That said :)

  godrulz "We are not responsible for Adam or Hitler's sin, just our own."

  godrulz, would you agree that the forefathers are responsible (in part) for us receiving the consequences of sin, see here for example? Exodus 34:7

  I guess the main issue I have is the idea that it is wholly a question of our own volition whether we sin or not.

  Surely that would leave the possibility of parts of mankind being without sin, if indeed you believe we are created holy?

  Why do we all fall into the honey pot

  Why haven't some seen sin leads to a sticky death and avoided it?

  Are we not just already born into the sticky death of Adam?

  I suppose when push comes to shove I am a Calvinist.

  Total depravity

  Blessings in Christ,

  Stephen
• 

  wobble

  Thanks for all your input everybody, I have been given an insight in to the character of the Christian God.

  I am damned to hell, whatever your interpretation of hell is, if I do not believe in Jesus.

  So, as a rational thinker, who looks for proof for everythig I put my trust in, God expects me to not do that, just to "believe" or I am condemned.

  You could demand that I believe in the Flying Spagetti Monster with as much authority or chance of getting me so to do.

  I do not expect anyone to trust me, my ideas, or indeed anything without proof. The kind of proof that would satisfy a scientific and forensic investigation.

  As I said, your Christian God does not come up to my standards.
• 

  watersprout

  I am damned to hell, whatever your interpretation of hell is, if I do not believe in Jesus.

  Tammy, PSac and I never said that! You are most definately NOT damned to hell. No one is. Christ died for ALL of mankind, not just Christians. It's all about how you live your life now, with the love you have for others. It's about how you treat others... If we point our finger and judge others, then we will be judged in that way. If we have shown love and kindness to others, then we will be judged with love.

  Peace
• 

  wobble

  With all due respect, that may be your view dear Watersprout, but see the posts above, if I do not believe in Jesus, and that means believe in Jesus as the posters do, I am going to be judged adversely.

  That means Eternal Cutting Off, there is no middle ground, belivers saved, those who don't go off in to the "lake that burns with fire".
• 

  Curtains

  I quite like the ideas about Christ in this thread. When christians say I don't know or I don't know how something factors in - this to me is very much like the christ I used to know. Christ is very attractive if viewed in this way because the inference is that of unchartered, free space and movement

  Of course I am not looking to believe in Chirst (as I have passed through him and he has passed through me, I guess)- just seeing similarities with how I like to see lots of space and movement in and around us.

  as to your question wobble - imo when Jesus spoke about judgement he was talking about his time and his world and this he was doing to emphasize a new beginning. Also he was speaking in hindsight to enable people to make sense of injustices, defeats and stalemates and still maintain a courageous spirit oriented to the future.
• 

  Curtains

  wobble

  That means Eternal Cutting Off, there is no middle ground, belivers saved, those who don't go off in to the "lake that burns with fire".

  I absolutely loathe this God as he seems to encourage hate, vengeance and small mindedness.
• 

  Chalam

  "Tammy, PSac and I never said that! You are most definately NOT damned to hell. No one is. Christ died for ALL of mankind, not just Christians."

  Watersprout, now that sounds more like Universalism.

  Try these for size

  Romans 9:27

  English Standard Version (ESV)

  27 And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved

  Psalm 95:11

  English Standard Version (ESV)

  11 Therefore I swore in my wrath,
  "They shall not enter my rest."

  Romans 9:13-21

  English Standard Version (ESV)

  13 As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

  14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

  19 You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?

  I asked the Lord what to read today in the bible. Verse 14 remind me of this discussion regarding "original sin".

  James 1:13-15

  English Standard Version (ESV)

  13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God," for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. 14 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. 15 Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.

  Blessing in Christ,

  Stephen
• 

  Heaven

  Wouldn't it have been a lot less costlier to have settled whatever was bugging God about 2 seconds after the offense occured, I mean he is God, why make thousands of generations of children suffer for something he could have pardoned immediately.

  designs, I agree. Also, why are we being punished for someone else's indiscretions and what do they have to do with me? Also, the assumptions are that I am decendent from these people. Ok, prove it. I happen to believe I am not a decendent of Adam and Eve so I am not in this circle of sin and needing redemption.

  According to the Bible, if you don't accept Christ as your saviour, you will be judged. So how does that work for people who have never, ever heard of the guy? You know, like these people, discovered about 3 years ago, no one knew they existed before now. Are they screwed because they don't know about Jesus and therefore, haven't accepted him as their saviour?:

  
• 

  bohm

  mdb makes a point which summerize the sophistication of 2000 years of work on christian appoletics. farm animals is the key:

  There are goats and there are sheep. I believe in the words of God.

  dont forget the cows!

  on to the classic:

  The righteous will live by faith in Jesus and those who deny Jesus have called God a liar.

  In related news, if you dont believe in flying pigs, its because you dont like it when they crap on your car.
• 

  watersprout

  With all due respect, that may be your view dear Watersprout, but see the posts above,

  I'm sorry i re read my post and it sounds like i was shouting at you... I wasn't honest. According to certain posters i'm going to hell to!

  if I do not believe in Jesus, and that means believe in Jesus as the posters do, I am going to be judged adversely.

  Well i don't believe in what the other posters say either, so according to their rules i'm going to be judged adversely too... All my Lord has said to me is that i'm to show love and treat everyone how i want to be treated... It's hard cause i'm a fiery madam... But not once has my Lord judged me... He disciplines, shows and teaches me with love... Thats the Christ i have come to know, not the Christ who, if you don't believe in Him will cause you untold suffering!

  Wobble you sound like a lovely man, who i hope to meet one day... Just keep on showing that love you have inside of you and ignore those who condemn you.

  Hi Stephen, glad to see you back. Hope you are well??

  Watersprout, now that sounds more like Universalism.

  I don't like labels.... They make me sad....I'm not a Universalist, I'm not anything. Well I am a believer in God and Christ. I don't know who or how many souls God will save... Not my place, nor do i want to know. Thanks for quoting those scriptures, I did read them. Thanks.

  Peace Sprout