by wobble 277 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
"Essentually you are born already in debt to the church.. I mean "god"."
That's not biblical. Jesus said that we need to be like children.
WE ARE NOT BORN WITH SIN.
We are born with the knowledge of good and evil.
Once we reach accountable age, our shortcomings will be counted as sin if we don't have Christ.
Peace
Hi Wobble, According to the Bible Jesus Christ will judge people and Christians are suppose to be followers of Jesus Christ, so you should be asking (praying to) Jesus Christ whether you will be saved from sin, instead of asking Christians, who probably have sinned at least once in their own lives. If you want to hear an answer from just anyone, I suggest that you ask a JW, but you probably already know their answer without asking.
My personal belief for happiness in this life (not neccesarily salvation from sin) is to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ and pray for guidance from Our Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit.
Peace be with you and everyone, who you love,
ABibleStudent
The whole thing about Adam is that sin entered the world through him. Because before he sinned, there was no sin - simply because he was the first TO sin. Now sin is in existence and so in the world, and I can't say that it isn't in our nature to sin, because I believe that it is. People usually have to be taught right from wrong, as children...
I agree, Tammy. Expanding on this, the reason Adam was the first sinner is that he ate from "the tree of knowledge (of good and evil)". He was the first to be capable of knowing there was a moral choice between good and evil. With that knowledge came the responsibility to apply it. That is our heritage from Adam's sin--not blame for the act he committed, but the ability to be capable of sins of our own, and an imperfect human nature that leads us to commit them.
I agree with Lime. The concept of inherent SIN is nothing more than a way to make you you always OWE A DEBT YOU CAN NEVER REPAY, BUT WILL BE PUNISHED FOR NOT MAKING PAYMENTS ON.
Religion has always been a marvelous tool for clever and power-hungry men to control masses of ignorant people, but the introduction of Adamic sin was a brilliant innovation enhancing its effectiveness greatly.
Ah yes, and the REASON for Adamic sin is particularly delicious... HE WANTED TO THINK FOR HIMSELF. As the Watchtower is so fond of reminding us, INDEPENDENT THINKING is our great foe. The alternative, of course, is DEPENDENT THINKING.
Since we cannot rely on our own imperfect brains to effectively analyze information and come to correct conclusions, we need to take the word of a greater source... which just happens to be written by other men! Because, you know, they don't suffer from your same defective brain condition.
The mysticism of religion always has been and is still just a way for people to control other people by getting them to voluntarily abdicate their responsibility to think.
As a Christian, I do not believe traditional Augustinian/Catholic/Reformed Adamic 'original sin' is biblical. I am in a minority in my circles. Rom. 1-5 will answer your questions. I will expand if anyone is interested. The bottom line is that God's holy standard is perfection and we all fall short of His glory in thought, word, motive, deed. We are all condemned sinners in need of a sinless Savior since we cannot save ourselves. Works based religions like Islam, JW, Mormon cannot save anyone. Only the blood of Jesus received by grace through faith will save. Wrong assumptions lead to wrong conclusions. If original sin is a stumbling block to faith, we can jettison it as untrue and search out a more biblical view that does not confuse morals and metaphysics. The Law condemns us as missing the mark, falling short, disobedience, selfish, etc. We could go through each point of the Decalogue and show how we have broken it in spirit and letter (lust/adultery; hate/murder; not putting God first always, etc.) countless times (one time would make us a sinner). We need the weight of the Law to break us before we see a need for grace.
The passion of the Christ shows us the awfulness of sin and the great love of God. The cross (not stake) is unnecessary in your view, but vital in God's view which is accurate (yours if flawed).
godrulz: God's holy standard is perfection
Which God? The True God, or Biblegod?
This, to me is one of the biggest problems with not only Christianity, but religion in general. The God who created this world is far from perfect. It is filled with pain, suffering, violence, disease, sickness and misery, to name just a few pleasantries. This also includes the animal kingdom, who are certainly not "sinners". If we blame these things on "Satan", then the Creator still gets credit for the misery, because Satan was his very first science project with his newly created "Master Worker", according to the Bible.
Now if you want to get into the Old Testament God, he is ANYTHING but "perfect". He is a jealous, murdering, vengeful, spiteful scumbag who loves burning flesh, has a sick attachment to blood, and makes Pol Pot look like Mother Teresa. He will put you to sleep for all eternity if he feels you're not doing enough to praise his sorry, insecure ass.
So please explain to us why anyone should try to live up to the "standards" of Biblegod.
Thanks for all the comments, and you all seem to have a clear understanding of the biblical view of sin and judgement.
But how well do you guys know your God ?
In the O.P I pointed out that I do not believe in God. So my question was, if He did exist, on what basis would he judge me ?
If He is "Love" as John says in his letter, and if He is Just, as claimed in the Bible, I can only conclude that I have nothing to fear, He will judge me as being worthy of the "reward", because I lived according to my conscience.
Even though I did not believe in His existence.
If He is going to judge me adversely when I see no evidence for His existence that he has provided, then as I said:
"He does not come up to my standards"
I'm a Christian, but I am Universalist. I don't believe that God condemns us for Adamic sin. I believe like any parent, he will help his children through everything, good and bad and that Jesus' death was not a redemptive death. I believe he came, lived and died for other reasons.
Here is a scripture to keep in mind from Romans the 2nd Chapter:
14For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, (S) by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is (T) written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them
I feel like like this: we are all born with faulty genetics. Some fair much worse in the genetic roulette. Then we all get imperfect parents. Again, some do very well, but some get horror parents. Then there is the place and economy of where we are born. Think of the differences in circumstances of each individual.
None of us asked to be here, that we know of. It would be unfair of God to expect anything but struggles from most of us. And how fair is it to compare someone who is naturally, easily well behaved and someone, who by the luck of the draw, is not? The God I serve has perfect insight. He knows all of this. Otherwise what makes the god many Christians worship better than Satan?
I don't believe that God is a great big abusive parent.
