Obviously. There are goats and there are sheep. I believe in the words of God.
What say you Christians ???
you said: "So, is your God going to judge me for the "sin" of some mythical forebears of mine ? Is he going to say that , because I did not believe in him, I willl be judged adversely, even though I lived by the precepts He is supposed to support ?
All I can say is, if your God is like that, I REFUSE to worship or acknowledge Him.
And I certainly do not want to get to know him. even if you call Him Jesus.
He does not come up to my standards."...
God has already judged your sin, my sin...everyone's sin. He did that in the garden...and that is why we die.
It was Jesus who was sent from the Father who gives us life again...His shed blood covers our sin...but only if you believe in Him...
"Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)
Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.
Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." romans 5:12-21
Wouldn't it have been a lot less costlier to have settled whatever was bugging God about 2 seconds after the offense occured, I mean he is God, why make thousands of generations of children suffer for something he could have pardoned immediately.
chalam: thx for the verses that I am familiar with. Rom. 4-5 is about justification, while Rom. 1-3 is the harmartiological passage (doctrine of sin). Rom. 5 deals with physical death (separation of spirit-soul from body), spiritual death (relational separation from God), and eternal death (everlasting separation in the lake of fire). Failing to distinguish physical depravity from Adam (we all die, even saints, even sinless Jesus; genetic/metaphysical) and moral depravity (volitional) in the passage leads to proof texting. Verses must be interpreted, not just quoted.
The myth of original sin (influenced by Charles G. Finney and the Bible) Do JWs believe in Adamic, original sin like Catholics do? I am in the minority of Evangelicals who reject this traditional view (without rejecting the fact that all are sinners in need of a sinless Savior....babies do not go to hell because they lack moral and mental capacity to sin or reject Christ).
Romans 5 (Ps. 51 is a more common proof text...see this link about Hebraisms; the few original sin proof texts do not negate hundreds of others that show that sin is volitional, not genetic).
Thanks for the reply. Here's my thoughts.
I prefer to let the verses speak for themselves and the Holy Spirit do the talking.
There are a lot of doctrinal "tags" that people are adverse to, for example "original sin". "age of accountability" or indeed "the Trinity". That said I understand we might feel the need these labels to identify some concepts we find in scripture.
I do not know particularly what the doctrine of original sin is beyond what is clearly stated in Romans 5, i.e. sin entered mankind through one man, Adam.
"Sin entered" shows that sin was not previously present and Adam's sin ushered in "the fall", a curse upon mankind and indeed the whole of creation itself.
I believe the bible teaches that sin is inevetiable for all those who are "in Adam", no amount of excercising one's own volition can break that spiritual law, "for you are dust,
and to dust you shall return".
Christ came to redeem mankind from the curse, Galatians 3:13
In being redeemed, by faith we are born again, i.e. "born from above" with the nature of the kingdom of light, not that of darkness. Those with a renewed spirit who follow the Spirit do not sin, He is holy.
Those who are not new creations can ONLY follow the ways of the flesh which leads to sin and death. New wine cannot function in the old wineskin!
Blessings in the Second Adam,
Adam's sin was the occasion of sin entering the race leading to physical depravity that affects us all. Our sin, following in his footsteps, is the occasion of sin entering our life, moral depravity (we are not born gay or born sinners; they are moral, volitional issues). Note the phrase....'for all have sinned'. We are not responsible for Adam or Hitler's sin, just our own. Following your interpretation on this, universalism would be true (Christ died, so all are saved...nope).
"Adam's sin was the occasion of sin entering the race leading to physical depravity that affects us all."
IMHO, following the spiritual law, sin leads to death i.e. we all have inherited Adam's sin nature and will die.
It would appear you are stating that mankind can be born into the curse yet holy or "sin nature", and remain holy by our volition but still be led to "physical depravity" i.e. death?
"Our sin, following in his footsteps, is the occasion of sin entering our life, moral depravity (we are not born gay or born sinners; they are moral, volitional issues). Note the phrase....'for all have sinned'."
Agreed, in part. What do you understand implications of "the curse" to be?
"We are not responsible for Adam or Hitler's sin, just our own."
Ageed in full.
"Following your interpretation on this, universalism would be true (Christ died, so all are saved...nope)."
Maybe you could elaborate? From my perspective that is like adding 2+2 and totalling infinity.
In short, how can a person born without the Spirit escape the inevetiability of sin?
Blessings in Christ,
romans 5...Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam,
For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification.
For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. john 3:17-18
this judgement of condemnation to death is the result of the original sin...because we all die we all face the result of original sin.
In the O.P I pointed out that I do not believe in God. So my question was, if He did exist, on what basis would he judge me ?
I can't answer that, Wobble. Only God can. But I can offer a thought:
"For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." Matthew 7:2
Stephen: I don't know about Satan and sin. I thought about that as I was typing my response, but I remember that sin entered the world through Adam. And yet, deception is a sin, especially when used to hurt someone. I'm not sure how that factors in. I haven't thought about it much, and I've never prayed about it. You have thoughts on it?