Debunking the Watchtower - Slam Dunks and Solid Arguments

by Nickolas 88 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Nickolas

    There's a wide cross section of thinkers on this board, representing Christian belief and non-belief and points in between, the agnostics. There is most definitely a minority, mostly silent, of devoted Jehovah's Witnesses present, too, but their contribution to the dialogue and dynamic of the board is minimal. That small minority aside, it can be said the people who venture into here to communicate with one another share a common paradigm, and that is The Watchtower is built on a foundation of clay. The fact that it remains standing and apparently solid either belies that perspective or underscores the iron grip the Society has upon its adherents. But everything one takes away from the foundation of the Watchtower, every closely held belief, doctrine or position that is shown to be in error, weakens its credibility and paves the way for good, honest people within to leave.

    Conversation in here has a tendency to polarise around belief and non-belief. I guess that's pretty much inevitable and its not necessarilty a bad thing. Lights go on sometimes on both sides. It's only destructive when it gets personal which, unfortunately, does happen all too often.

    I am soliciting insightful conversation on debunking the Watchtower. There are some things that are slam dunks in my estimation - the vegetarianism of antideluvian animals and the age of man, for a couple of examples. Others require a more thoughtful argument, like the scriptural prohibition on blood.

    Are there others?

  • designs

    Nickolas- Just an observation. Pulling the pillars of Beliefs from the Society has limited effects because Belief and Faith supercede reason. People will cling to a Religious system long after it has been shown to be a house of cards.

    Driving through Orange County Ca. this week I passed the Trinity Broadcast Network's gaudy Corporate Headquarters with all of the Christmas lights in full blazing glory and you wonder how the f*&^k is it possible for reasonable people to support this thing, but they do to the tune of $Millions each year.

    Go figure. So debunkig the blood issues and other junk from the Society will help some but diehards seem immune from reason.

  • OnTheWayOut

    Use the scripture on false prophets along with the Watchtower's claims for "this twentieth century" or "the 1914 Generation" and make sure to throw in an old AWAKE masthead that clearly shows it as "Jehovah's promises." Why, these must be false prophets.

  • OnTheWayOut

    It isn't so easy to simply debunk the Watchtower. Many have done it numerous times with a JW and the JW remains a JW. Notice this Matrix explanation:

      Neo: What truth?
      Morpheus: That you are a slave, Neo. Like everyone else, you were born into bondage, born inside a prison that you cannot smell, taste, or touch. A prison for your mind. (long pause, sighs) Unfortunately, no one can be told what the Matrix is. You have to see it for yourself. This is your last chance. After this, there is no turning back.
      (In his left hand, Morpheus shows a blue pill.)
      Morpheus: You take the blue pill and the story ends. You wake in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. (a red pill is shown in his other hand) You take the red pill and you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes. (Long pause; Neo begins to reach for the red pill) Remember -- all I am offering is the truth, nothing more.

      The JW has "to see it for youself." But they refuse to even consider the red pill. All the arguing in the world doesn't work on some of them. The premise has to be accepted that the offer of the 'red pill' is actually going to reveal some deeper truth. Hence, most JW's come out on their own, but with prompting. That doesn't mean it's wrong to debunk. Something breaks through to many minds to start the process of preparing them for the 'red pill.'
  • Nickolas

    I concur, designs and OTWO. What I have seen for myself are eyes glazing over when solid, incontrovertable argument is presented. Some people just don't want to or are unable to hear what you have to say. Some do, and it is for those I have the greatest hope. However, those who have not yet made the giant leap of faith and joined the Society and are still searching for answers are perhaps those best served by what I am talking about.

    According to the Society's own records, there was a net loss of around 52,000 Jehovah's Witnesses in 1977-78. When you add in the new people who joined during that time period to offset the loss, the number of baptised Jehovah's witnesses who disassociated is likely in the hundreds of thousands. This was the effect of the 1975 fiasco. Interestingly, the number of publishers increased by 406,000 in the years 1974 and 1975, testimony to how effective the pre-1975-Armageddon recruitment drive was. And we all know that once you are in, you are in.

    The point I am trying to make is, some people will have the mental fortitude to leave if presented with hard reality. Better still, many more who have not yet been indoctrinated will not join. If the Watchtower will not be brought down by defections from within, it will be brought down by attrition. I'm ok with either dynamic.


    Slam Dunk,Solid Arguements,are useless against believing JW`s..

    Many JW Cult Members will tell you..

    "If the WBT$ says this Red book,is Blue..Then the book is Blue!!"..


    "Thats what we used to believe..We have "New Light"..And..The Light gets Brighter and Brighter!!"..

    There is no Reasoning with JW`s..Just blind Obedience..

    Regardless of how Insane the WBT$ is..

    Crazy JW`s following a Crazy WBT$ Cult..And..No one is going to talk them out of it..

    .......................... ...OUTLAW

  • Nickolas

    Let's just say I'm not as defeatist as you are, OUTLAW. Maybe less pessimistic is more like it.

    You know my story by now. My wife's a Witness, I am an atheist. A year ago my wife's nephew was df'ed and now her family is permanently split into two factions. The Watchtower has broken apart her family. The same can happen to mine, since one of my children is also a Witness and the other two are not.

    If someone invades my home I will perceive him to be a threat to my family and I will defend them and myself with all the hate and fury I can muster. While for almost 33 years I viewed the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society as just a negative influence on my life, I now perceive it to be threat to my family. The game has changed. I have the choice between keeping my mouth shut or preparing for the showdown that must inevitably come. You were a Witness once, and you broke free. I'd appreciate it if you helped me out.

  • Satanus

    When the inner apostate, that resides within the jw is ready to break out, one (many) who has(ve) gone before will appear to give a helping hand(s).


  • Mad Sweeney
    Mad Sweeney

    I find it interesting that many Ex-JWs who have left so firmly believe that persuading people to leave is so ineffective as to be practically useless. What makes you and I so special then? Why did we leave if not because of a compilation of convincing facts?

    Fact: we left.

    Fact: for many of us it was due to the use of reason and factual information debunking Borg doctrine and/or revealing Borg mind-control techniques.

    Question: why assume factual information debunking Borg doctrine and/or revealing Borg mind-control techniques won't work on anyone else?

  • The Finger
    The Finger

    When I was a JW I would not have come to sites like this or read books like Ray Franz. In the early nineties I had some big problems with the congregation Elders in the congregation I was attending. (One Elder who asked for a meeting with me told me some could have gone to prison) A friend asked me if I would leave the truth. I laughed. Later even when I had trouble with the new teaching in 1994. I still laughed when my father in law suggested I might leave. I think in the end I left because they pushed me away. I could not preach any more things I did not believe. In not preaching you are no longer a publisher and are not joining Christ's brothers or supporting them.

    For me arguements didn't mean much. Truth belongs to God. Whatever I may have thought or not was of no importance. This was God's organization. I would adjust my viewpoint. So why didn't I?

    In the last year I have spoken to some. They know things are not great, one has endured alot. Would they turn away due to my arguement? No. If they fail it will be due to themselves. I don't think there is anything I could possibly say that would make a JW leave. Only those that teach will do it.

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