Debunking the Watchtower - Slam Dunks and Solid Arguments

by Nickolas 88 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Kafka

  Nickolas,

  My heart goes out to you. I totally understand your situation. My family is divided, and there's not much I can do about it. Those still in refuse to listen to any deviation from the "truth" as told to them by their "book publishing company".

  I just wanted to give out a few thoughts, don't know if they'll help. I have to agree with everyone that says to take it slow and be covert (OUTLAW). When you confront them with logic and reasoning, the devout ones have been conditioned to mentaly shutdown and run to their "book publishing company's" literature for answers, if not directly, then with the aid of an elder. So you must be covert, and allow them to do most of your work, as Wobble most wisely suggested in his last post.

  Their own tendancies to be human and not divine will aid immensely.

  I may be crude in my delivery, and I may be totally mistaken, but I've always wondered why people allow themselves to be so taken in by cults. What do they offer? I believe mostly what they offer is uniqueness, and supposed superiority to the masses of mankind, a "we know and have something that you don't, and you can't get unless you become like me" attitude. And for JW's it's knowledge of the most important kind to them. "Everlasting life!" Unlike most Christian religions that teach life after death, these people actually believe they are never going to die and will continue to live here on earth! How powerful of a motivator is that?!?! It's a very strong narcissistic motivation that you must overcome. All fed, supported, and very organized by a book publishing company and their narcissistic followers. End of RANT!

  All the best to your efforts, Nickolas.
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  Nickolas

  Thanks to all for the great advice, links and encouragement. Please accept my best wishes in return.
• 

  PSacramento

  With my father, mother and older sister as part of the JW's I am routinely debunking many of their doctrines over and over and while aat times I notice a "glimer' of understanding, it quickly dissipitates after a few meetings.

  And I am back to the drawing board all over again.

  That's ok though, I've never given up at anything in my life and I don't intend on starting now.
• 

  Qcmbr

  Maybe this is what happens when we try to discuss anything not based in reality or at least a concept currently unapproachable by scientific testing. You could spend many hours discussing the relative strengths of Batman and Spiderman and still not agree on which would win in a fight. The root of debunking is to find out why someone holds to the unprovable story rather than trying to discuss why spider silk or fixed bat helmets could be considered detrimental to a superhero .

  For many years I held to the idea that Santa existed. I had my regular evidence (presents) , I had my supernatural experience (I 'heard' sleigh bells in the early hours one christmas) and my belief guardians told me it was true (mum and grandparents). My rational logical side spent a lot of time working out how Santa could get into all the houses (skeleton keys I decided, since my house didn't have a chimney) but I couldn't square the delivery timing problem (on mental shelf.) I avoided thinking about why I got less than my rich friends and more than the kids in rural Africa. The stumbling blocks to deciding against Santa were easy to list: No one (who I trusted) who would be honest with me, a fear of not getting presents and a genuine emotional enjoyment of the whole experience.

  Find out why someone believes and you'll find out how to debunk. For me and Santa I happily left him when I found that he didn't bring presents, that not believing in him was ok with everyone and that the magical fun of the event didn't disappear when I knew the truth. A huge revelation for me - with the exception of everyone being ok - was how similar the god story was for me. Now I no longer believe, the world is still awesome (maybe even more so!), my mental shelf is less strained and guess what I still get as many 'blessings' and 'trials' as before (I just spend less time trying to arrange them into a billion piece cosmic jigsaw .)

  I'm trying to show my wife (and I'm almost there) why I feel Mormonism is just another religion and not the 'only true church' and I figured what her reasons to believe are: Family, tradition and society (she was never all that up on the actual beliefs and wasn't too fazed by all my evidence of the lies). By looking for new traditions, not alienating the family and reminding her how little the LDS society plays a part in our lives compared to when we were kids she has come 180 degrees in her thinking.

  Debunk the reason for the emotion imo.
• 

  TD

  Hey Qcmbr!

  Even though they fight like crazy, JW's and Mormons are in some ways, 'Pups from the same litter.' Your perspective is interesting and probably spot on too.
• 

  Curtains

  nickolas, I am finally understanding you

  I think the direct assault strategy is off the board. Thanks, designs, but I imagine you probably see it too. It might end up more like a kamikaze attack, and I'm not into self sacrifice, at least not to that degree. Guerilla warfare against the larger target, love, patience and understanding otherwise.

  Regarding Guerilla warfare, on the science front I can't fault your understanding and reasoning and your ability to achieve some success with your wife. Other branches of knowledge that you may like to try are philosophy and literature. The goal (through philosophy in particular) is to enable your wife to start thinking outside the box, and moreover, to think in ways that will supply her many different concepts and ideas that she can resonate with, and that gradually work to extend and differencify her perceptions of life - her own potential for multplicities will do the rest. Believe me she has this power within her and the outside world constantly makes calls for her to diversify. At the moment the only perception of life she is allowed is the JW one and her own potential is highly circumscribed.

  Certain types of literature will help her to see the effects of life on people and things. These will stir dormant transformative drives and affects by which she may come to desire change herself. You will need to visit your library and decide what affects you the most and what in your opinion your wife would find most interesting. Even better would be to take your wife with you to the library.
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  Vidiot

  Here's one I don't think anybody's thought of yet:

  The WT (among others) assert that we grow old, get sick, and die due to "inherited imperfection", and that Biblical figures like Methuselah lived 900+ years because they were only a few generations removed from Adam, and thusly closer to "physical perfection". Therefore, the farther humans get from physical perfection, the more imperfect we get.

  By that logic, our kids should be uglier and stupider than us.

  Try getting any conservative Christian to say that about their kids.
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  Meeting Junkie No More

  Nickolas, not sure exactly of your personal situation; haven't read all of your previous posts; I just know your wife is in and you are not. For what it's worth, my past experience has been that 'divided household Witnesses' thrive on the divided household thing, and the more you are seen as the 'persecutor', the more 'righteous' they have to remain...so not sure if that's the scenario in your household or not.

  But if so, feign genuine interest, start reading the magazines, maybe highlight with a very colourful highlighter all the 'evidentlys' or 'seems to indicate' or 'thus it can be inferred'...leave them laying around the house for her to 'tidy up'; maybe point out that youve just realized all of these articles seem to be written anonymously; doesn't anybody want to take ownership of what they're writing? - when she points out they don't want creature worship therefore no names (!) CRAZY I KNOW!, tell her how absolutely ludicrous that sounds. I think most Witnesses these days understand that nobody gets WORSHIP because of articles they write, but that is supposedly the reason these articles are all written anonymously. So really you're not attacking doctrines per se, just the modus operandi of the outfit.

  I grew up in a divided household. My agnostic parent used to always comment on how every article seemed to end by saying Why not join the witnesses at their next meeting?, or why not start a Bible study? blah, blah and he said in that sense, the whole magazine was ADVERTISEMENT for the religion! I never forgot that and now, I really see the point!

  Just my 2c I agree with you in that once you see this organization for what it really is - A MENTAL PRISON - you really have a desire to open the gates and bars for any trapped within.
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  garyneal

  Wow, I am very late to this but want to contribute. Marking for now.