@moshe:
[That's] very funny, seeing as how no GB member has publicly accepted the title of F&DS.
When did "faithful and discreet slave" become a title? It's not a title no more so than the "rich man" in Jesus' parable about the rich man and Lazarus is a title. BTW, @moshe, you may feel you have a legitimate grievance, an ax to grind, against the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses, but you're off topic. You could easily start your own thread instead hijacking @Red Piller's thread as you are clearly doing.
@DanaBug:
Wow what a convoluted way to explain it!
What did you find "convoluted" about the explanation I provided?
Simple explanation: Jesus was referring to a future generation that would witness the signs he described and would not pass away before he arrived.
But your "simple explanation" is not even close to what Jesus meant by what he said at Matthew 24:34. It would seem that you are either reading comprehension-challenged so that you were unable to understand what I wrote in my post (granted it was rather long!) or you're just perverse. Whatever your reason for posting what you posted, I want you to be clear on one thing: At Matthew 24:34, when Jesus used the words "this generation," Jehovah's Witnesses were wrong; we were mistaken as to what Jesus meant by the word "generation."
It was no doubt difficult for the apostle Peter, too, an observant Jew that from birth was accustomed to keeping the Law of Moses, to make the adjustment that God commanded him to make, for we read at Acts 10:28 Peter's saying, "You well know how unlawful it is for a Jew to join himself to or approach a man of another race." But somehow Peter managed to adjust his viewpoint, saying, "God has shown me I should call no man defiled or unclean."
It is by means of the holy spirit that God has shown the faithful and discreet slave what Jehovah's Witnesses have now been privileged to learn as to meaning of Jesus' words at Matthew 24:34 in that at Exodus 1:6, the holy spirit has spoken the following words: "Eventually Joseph died, and also all his brothers, and all that generation." Just as Peter didn't know why God had removed the wall that separated Jews from Gentile, but he understood that this was God's will and he made the adjustment. As was the case with all Jehovah's Witnesses until the first article in 2008 and the second one in 2010, you did not know that Jehovah's Witnesses had not correctly understood Jesus' words at Matthew 24:34, but it seems you have your own view on what Jesus meant by the word "generation" and you are content to resist the holy spirit in taking the right viewpoint on the matter.
Jesus urges: "Let the one who has an ear hear what the spirit says to the congregations." (Revelation 3:22) But it seems you prefer to behave as if you were brainwashed into believing what you believe to have been what Jesus meant by "generation," which means that your knowledge of Jehovah is, therefore, incomplete since what things there are to know about God's word are gained progressively 'as the light gets lighter.'
Consequently, @DanaBug, I would, therefore, say, that you are in reality just like that Samaritan woman to whom Jesus spoke in John chapter 4, a believer in falsehoods, worshipping a nonexistent god, for my God is Jehovah, and He is the God of truth. Those who want to be Jehovah's true worshippers must worship Him in accord with truth, since whatever it is you might call worship don't go to my God, but, instead, goes to the Satan the Devil, who accepts all worship that is not based on truth. Of course, I would expect you to disagree with this, for what I just said here to you flatters no one, but this makes sense since arrogance flatters no one, and there is nothing commendable about anyone that resists the holy spirit.
The skinny of my long post is that Jesus was not making reference "to a future generation that would witness the signs he described." Only a perverse mind would even assert such a thing as if he or she have spent as much time studying the matter this as has the faithful and discreet slave from whom you came to learn something in error as to Jesus' use of the word "generation" at Matthew 24:34 that is now be retracted in favor of the truth. By saying what you have stated here, you are just repeating the error that Jehovah's Witnesses now know to be in error and by so doing you are totally rejecting what Jehovah's Witnesses are now publishing to all as to what Jesus meant by those words at Matthew 24:34.
If someone draws a map for you, only to later inform you of an error in the original map and gives you a redrawn map to use, but you ignore the redrawn map and decide to foolishly go with the original map that puts you on a highway with no exit for eight miles, so that you then have to retrace that same eight miles so that you might travel west for three miles to arrive at your destination, to whom can you point for the additional 16 miles you travelled?
If the sign started in 1914, how many are still alive? False prophets. It's that simple.
This statement of yours borders reflects your ignorance and your unwillingness to be adjusted in your thinking, which is really the mental state of many Jehovah's Witnesses today that attend meetings at the Kingdom Hall as if they are members of a Christian club of some sort and warm the seats. These folks are among the ones about whom the apostle Paul spoke at 2 Timothy 3:7 , who are "always learning and yet never able to come to an accurate knowledge of truth."
@djeggnog wrote:
What "promise" do you mean? No promise was made to anyone, but in 1985 when the book, "Reasoning From the Scriptures" was released, and also when this book was later revised in 1989, Jehovah's Witnesses did not understand at that time that Jesus' reference to "this generation" at Matthew 24:34 referred (1) to his anointed brothers that were alive in 1914 and (2) would include those of his anointed brothers living contemporaneous with the period of the sign of Jesus' presence until the great tribulation and the conclusion of the system of things, whose lives would overlap the lives of some of those of his brothers that were alive in 1914.
@jwfacts wrote:
You are kidding me. Do you really believe the things you write, or just think any answer, no matter how illogical, is better than none?
Why don't you educate me now? What did I say that you found to be "illogical"? You didn't say in your post what it was I said that you thought to be illogical. Instead you share with me your take on disfellowshipping as if what you said about losing family and friends was rooted in the truth. Specifically, you wrote:
How can you justify it as acceptable that the Watchtower didn't understand at the time, so it does not matter it was wrong. The Watchtower at the time still claimed they were providing food from God. If you disagreed at the time you could be disfellowshipped and [lose] family and friends.
You speak about the Watchtower as if it were a person instead of the name of a magazine or the name of a publishing company staffed by Jehovah's Witnesses, which prints the Bible and Bible-based literature that Jehovah's Witnesses use in their Christian ministry. It is the faithful and discreet slave that provides spiritual food for the domestics in God's household, and not "the Watchtower" (whatever you meant by it).
Tell me why you would think you could come into God's organization and essentially veto anything that Jehovah's Witnesses were teaching before you arrived? Would you be suggesting here that because you were drawn by Jehovah to become one of Jehovah's Witnesses that your baptism forced you to forfeit or surrender your free will whenever it was that you discovered that you could not accept what we were teaching so that you could not leave God's organization? Are you also saying that if you had disassociated yourself from Gods organization that you would not be able to enjoy the same familial relationships you enjoyed before your decision to disassociate yourself?
As to this last question I just asked you, there are many immature ones among Jehovah's Witnesses that do not read the very literature we place with those not Jehovah's Witnesses, and neither you nor they can find anywhere in any of our literature that indicates that a disfellowshipped or someone that disassociates themselves from God's organization is cut off from familial association with their own relatives. I cannot force you or any of these immature ones to read our literature, and I cannot force any of you to comprehend what our literature says on this particular topic.
What I can tell you, however, is that "you guys" have not really been listening and have been putting faith in the words of one another, as did the religious leaders that Jesus encountered during his ministry, instead of what God's word says. Nowhere in the Bible does it indicate that the body of elders can sever your familial ties with your spouse or with any members of your family. That you would be here saying that such a sanction is imposed upon those that decide that they no longer want to be Jehovah's Witnesses may be true, but such divisive action has never been directed by the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses to be taken, and any such action undertaken by any body of elders in God's organization by Judicial Committee can be appealed by the disfellowshipped individual and the disfellowshipment reversed, for the disfellowshipped individual is still recognized as having dedicated themselves to Jehovah and the elders reproved for the unwelcome insertion of themselves into family matters that fall outside of the purview of their theocratic responsibilities.
Elders are as guilty of being imperfect as is anyone else in God's organization and just as guilty as anyone else of not readily making the necessary adjustments as indicated in the Watchtower that we ought to make. Sometimes it can take three Watchtower articles for some to begin to get the point, but they still don't get it and revert back to their old ways if someone else should still be on the same wavelength or mindset the Watchtower may have been encouraged us all to change or abandon.
And with respect to being disfellowshipped for any reason, deserved or undeserved, did not the apostle Paul pointedly exhort us at 1 Corinthians 6:7 as follows: "Why do you not rather let yourselves be wronged?" The elders aren't the masters of anyone's faith; they cannot read anyone's heart. While they do the best they can as imperfect men, they are imperfect men, "[b]ut Jehovah of armies is judging with righteousness; he is examining the kidneys and the heart." (Jeremiah 11:20) Also, "not the way man sees is the way God sees, because mere man sees what appears to the eyes; but as for Jehovah, he sees what the heart is." (1 Samuel 16:7)
And contrary to what some of the immature ones serving as elders might say (I've never heard any elder say this, but some here have indicated in their posts that one or more elders have said as much to them): If one is a dedicated and baptized servant of God, disfellowshipped or not, Jehovah does hear that one's prayers provided one is not engaged in wicked acts, in which case He doesn't hear that one's prayers. If you feel you have been wrongly disfellowshipped, this would be an appropriate matter on which you might want to approach God in prayer as you pursue an appeal of the adverse action taken against you.
You should view the adverse action taken against you as a trial and "let endurance to have its work complete" by "[letting] yourself be wronged," knowing that "[Jehovah] sees what the heart is." While you are in a disfellowshipped state, nothing prevents you from making regular requests to be reinstated.
If you believed as you are expected to that the "Slave" provides correct food from God, then you incorrectly based life decisions on it, such as education, marriage and children.
I hear Jehovah's Witnesses saying this very thing over and over again, but anyone that mindlessly decided to drop out high school (I've heard this one a lot!) or to not pursue a university education so that they might be in a better position to provide for themselves and/or their families (I've heard this one a lot, too!), there is nothing in our literature that requested anyone to make such decisions against their own interests (and any elder that has dispensed such advice could well be responsible for having negatively impacted the lives of their spiritual brothers and sisters economically). Many Jehovah's Witnesses have college degrees; many more have high school diplomas.
Many Jehovah's Witnesses are professionals like myself and it would be unthinkable of any of us to suggest to anyone of our brothers or sisters that they should not pursue a college degree or a good education, and those who failed to do so were those that bought into the hype (translation: lie) that they were encouraged to do so in order to enter the full-time ministry, which is not true. If one's circumstances permitted them to do so, only then might it make sense for some to enter the full-time service, but some of those having young children have been discouraged from doing so until their children were older in order "that the word of God may not be spoken of abusively." (Titus 2:5)
Now I may be telling you things here that no one has ever said to you before (and maybe not, and it's possible that for whatever reason you just didn't hear these things being said), but these very things I am saying to you here has been stated many times in the Watchtower, and anyone that make decisions to please the elders and not Jehovah only does injury to himself or herself with no one to blame for this but himself or herself.
@caliber wrote:
Did you have this understanding figured out some time ago then "Wait on Jehovah " to reveal it to the Faithful and Wise Servant or is it through recent study and mediation that you have reached your conclusion ?
@djeggnog wrote:
I learned about what Jesus may have meant at Matthew 24:34 from conversations I've had with members of the faithful and discreet slave, not conversations I've had with members of the governing body who are also members of the faithful and discreet slave, but those folks here on this forum like to refer to as the "rank and file," who may or may not be serving as servants in the local congregation, but are, in fact, "anointed" followers of Jesus Christ. However, none of them have any interest in running ahead of God's organization, so when the news first broke back in 2008, they embraced the adjustment as I did, and when the adjustment was further advanced in 2010, they embraced the adjustment as I did. In God's organization, we all study the Bible, we all know something that others do not know, but we all speak in agreement and we never, ever run ahead of God's organization. When someone does this, they have no desire to be a part of it, and such ones are summarily dismissed from God's spiritual temple. It's not about your conclusion; it's about our being united as a people for God's name.
@caliber wrote:
JW's believe perfect doctrinal agreement is the truest sign of brotherhood ! Your statement above more than likely fit the Nazi party well too !!
Ok.
@wasblind wrote:
So I'll ask again, who Promised a peaceful and secure new world before the generation that saw the events of 1914 passes away ? Is there any JW on board who can answer this ? If you truly believe this religion is the "TRUTH", please answer.
@djeggnog wrote:
I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses and my answer to your question is that it was Jehovah [that] made the promise of a peaceful and secure new world.
@Fadeout wrote:
I appreciate you taking as much time as you have to explain your beliefs. I trust you understand that your above response to the above question is not actually an answer to the question.
Actually, I believe my response (quoted above) to have been a definitive response to the question that @wasblind put to me.
@Fadeout:
Nobody is disputing the fact that the Bible promises a peaceful and secure new world. Surely you realize that the key point here is the timeframe that was made an integral part of the promise by the Awake! writers. It is one thing to say "The Creator promises a secure and peaceful new world." It is quite another to say "The Creator promises a secure and peaceful new world by next Saturday." One promise is of an event at an undetermined time in the future; the other is of an event that will take place in a specific timeframe, which will definitely be proven correct or false when that timeframe has elapsed.
I get all of this, but in whom are you putting your trust? In men or in God? I see this as a defect in many of our brothers and sisters, who tend to feel they can blame someone else for what it was they believed without their appreciating that Jehovah's Witnesses are being led by holy spirit, but no one individual is being given direction from Jehovah Himself. This is not what Jesus promised at all. At John 14:26, Jesus said: "The helper, the holy spirit, which the Father will send in my name, that one will teach you all things and bring back to your minds all the things I told you." If we, as imperfect creatures, should along the way incorrectly discern what the spirit says, there could well be a need for us to make adjustments along the way "until the day is firmly established." (Proverbs 4:18)
This particular Promise, according to the Awake!, is for that event to happen "before the generation that saw the events of 1914 passes away." Since it is of course a Promise, the wholly appropriate question to ask is "Who made this promise regarding the 1914 generation?"
If this is how you understand God's promise to us, knowing (as you should!) that nobody knows "that day and hour" (Matthew 24:36), then who else can you blame if you yourself were putting faith in these words of encouragement, which is what they are? These words weren't a prediction as you are making them out to be as if the faithful and discreet slave could actually countermand Jesus' clear words at Matthew 24:36.
@djeggnog
