Generation Teaching - Everyone is speechless?

by Red Piller 443 Replies latest jw friends

  • djeggnog
    djeggnog

    @Red Piller:

    Maybe the effect of this change is bigger than realized? in 1995, it was discussed (positively) by everybody, during the week we studied the WT.... For this change I have had only one person in the hall talking about it to me. (Ironically, the one person who discussed it with me was upset at the way it was explained by a talk. Actually, the talk stayed to script and explained the current teaching.) I have not heard or overhead any conversations besides that one time. No buzz at all - like the other 2 times.

    Well, here's a bit of "buzz" for you that may help you appreciate that not everyone is "speechless," even if some of the folks you know are, in fact, speechless at this time, for not all congregations of Jehovah's Witnesses are alike:

    If you were a Catholic before 1970, then you would be expected to adhere to the teaching of the Eucharist, which is that portion of the Mass when the Catholic priest says a blessing over the Host, that is to say, the bread ("the wafers") and the wine, and then invites the church to receive Jesus Christ in Holy Communion, where the Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation teaches that the bread and wine are said to be miraculously transformed into the literal body and blood of Christ. If you were one of Jehovah's Witnesses before 1995, then you would be expected to adhere to the teaching that the "generation" to which Jesus referred at Matthew 24:34 had to do with those of Jesus' anointed brothers that saw the events that unfolded in 1914.

    Now someone that is a non-Catholic might think the notion of the Roman Catholic Church with regard to its doctrine of transubstantiation to be a lie, that the bread and wine do not miraculously become transformed into Christ's literal body and blood, which would be your view, but this would not be view of Catholics that adhere to the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church. However, it was in 1970, that Pope Paul VI stepped in and effected a change in the Eucharist, so that the Roman Catholic Church has now done away with the restriction that had been placed upon the priests inviting the church to partake of the wine that the priests alone had before 1970 been the only ones allowed to partake.

    So now, in addition to the wafers, this change permits the offering of both the bread and wine to congregants as a regular part of Communion. I might add here that in 1987, some of the Lutheran Churches and the United Churches of Christ elected to offer grape juice as an alternative to wine for those attending the Eucharist ceremony to accommodate those in the church that wished to abstain from drinking alcohol.

    It was after 1995 that the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses discerned that "the generation" to which Jesus referred at Matthew 24:34 seemed to not have been with reference to Jesus' anointed brothers, but, rather, should be applied to the unbelieving Jewish contemporaries of Jesus Christ to whom he was speaking, and thereby, by extension, to the world that saw the events that unfolded in 1914. However, 13 years later, in 2008, an adjustment to our understanding of Matthew 24:34 rescinded the 1995 explanation, restoring the pre-1995 explanation until 2010, when the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses discerned that anointed would be contemporaries of the generation whose lives would overlap the lives of those that would see the beginning of the composite sign and those that would see the end, including the great tribulation.

    What Jehovah's Witnesses believe Jesus meant by his reference to "this generation" at Matthew 24:34 is not a lie, but a doctrinal viewpoint held by Jehovah's Witnesses, and the definition of a "generation" as a period of time and not limited to an average of 20-23 years is based on a Bible generation being described as a period of years, such as is the case with Joseph's generation, which covered a period of 110 years, which is the current viewpoint of Jehovah's Witnesses. Likewise, what the Roman Catholic Church believes with respect to the transubstantiation is a doctrinal viewpoint held by Catholics, and even though in this day and age hardly anyone is willing to go on record in saying that they believe such a miraculous transformation of the bread and wine into Jesus' literal flesh and blood occurs every day at Mass, this is the current viewpoint of Catholics.

    More to the point, the following is the response that was given in a QfR article back in 1952 to the question: "Your publications point out that the battle of Armageddon will come in this generation, and that this generation began A.D. 1914. Scripturally, how long is a generation?" [w52 9/1 QFR]

    [T]he Bible ... gives no number of years for a generation.... [I]n the texts mentioning the generation [Matthew 24:34, Mark 13:30 and Luke 21:32]..., we are not to take generation as meaning the average time for one generation to be succeeded by the next, as Webster’s does in its 33-year approximation; but rather... "the average lifetime of man." Three or even four generations may be living at the same time, their lives overlapping....

    [W]e could not calculate from such a figure the date of Armageddon, for the texts here under discussion do not say God’s battle comes right at the end of this generation, but before its end. To try to say how many years before its end would be speculative. The texts merely set a limit that is sufficiently definite for all present practical purposes. Some persons living A.D. 1914 when the series of foretold events began will also be living when the series ends with Armageddon. All the events will come within the span of a generation.

    Since the separation of sheep from goats doesn't begin until "immediately after" the great tribulation (Matthew 24:29), and Jesus specifically stated at Matthew 24:34 'this generation would not pass away until all these things [that Jesus mentions in Matthew 24 and 25] have occurred,' including the tribulation, then it would seem that just as Joseph's contemporaries were still living when Joseph died, then some of Jesus spiritual brothers would still be alive after the tribulation.

    The fact that our current year of 2010 is 96 years removed from the year 1914 does not help one do any more than speculate as to the year when the end will come, for we arrive at the year 2024 when counting 110 years forward from 1914, for Joseph's siblings, Joseph's two sons, Manasseh and Ephraim (who were born in Egypt) as well as Joseph's nephews and nieces lived during Joseph's lifetime, making all of them contemporaries of Joseph.

    Firstly, "the term 'generation' as used by Jesus [at Matthew 24:34] refers principally to contemporary people of a certain historical period, with their identifying characteristics." (wt95 11/1, p. 17, ¶6) Secondly, Jesus compared the generation in his day to the one in Noah's day at [Matthew 24:37-39], it seems clear that the people in Noah's generation paralleled the people in "this generation" which began when the sign of Jesus' second coming became manifest in the year 1914. (I would take note the use of the word "this generation" as they are used at Genesis 7:1.] Thirdly, even if though we are able to determine when "this generation" began, we would still be unable to calculate when "this generation" would come to an end since no one knows the "day and hour."

    Having said this, should we give consideration to what Exodus 1:6 says regarding the death of Joseph, Jacob's/Israel's son, "and also all his brothers and all that generation," then based on how old Joseph was when he died -- 110 -- then his contemporaries would have been "all [of] his brothers" and Joseph's two sons, Manasseh and Ephraim, who were both living when their father died.

    In an article that appeared in the Watchtower, entitled "Holy Spirit's Role in the Outworking of Jehovah's Purpose," indicates that "[t]he word "generation" usually refers to people of various ages whose lives overlap during a particular time period or event." (w08 2/15, p. 25 [box]) Now we've got an example of that: Exodus 1, and verse 6. "Eventually Joseph died, and also all his brothers, and all that generation." In this same article, we also read: "As a class, these anointed ones make up the modern-day 'generation' of contemporaries that will not pass away 'until all these things occur.'" ( w08 2/15, p. 24, ¶15)

    Just think about what's written there--it refers to Joseph and all his brothers as "that generation." Now ten of Joseph's brothers witnessed events before Joseph's birth and at least two of those brothers lived after his death. So while Joseph's contemporaries were of various ages, they were viewed as being a part of Joseph's "generation."

    Now looking at the dates, Jacob at age 84 marries both Leah and Rachel in 1774 BC (after his uncle Laban does a bait and switch) so that his 11th son, Joseph, is finally born to Rachel in 1767 BC. (Rachel dies when Benjamin, Jacob's most beloved son, is born some six years later in 1761 BC.) Joseph dies in 1657 BC at the age of 110. Those of Jesus' spiritual "brothers" that were alive contemporaneous with the "sign" that became manifest (or "born") in 1914 would correspond to those that became contemporaries of Joseph at his birth, which would include not only Joseph's 11 brothers, but to Joseph's two sons and to his nephews and nieces that were alive when Joseph died, all of these being "that generation" (Exodus 1:6). Thus, these contemporaries of Joseph's generation would correspond to Jesus' anointed brothers, who from 1914 until now were all contemporaries of the sign, they all of them bearing witness to the composite sign.

    The latest article that appeared in the Watchtower, entitled "Holy Spirit's Role in the Outworking of Jehovah's Purpose," stated, in pertinent part, the following:

    [Jesus] evidently meant that the lives of the anointed who were on hand when the sign began to become evident in 1914 would overlap with the lives of other anointed ones who would see the start of the great tribulation. That generation had a beginning, and it surely will have an end. [w10 4/15, p. 10, ¶14]

    There is but one generation of the sign with the anointed that saw the beginning of this sign and the anointed that will not pass away when the great tribulation comes toward the end of the sign. There is no reason for anyone to be attempting to force two [generations] into becoming a single generation since Jesus specifically spoke of "this generation," which is not two generations, but only one.

    The only significant change here between the viewpoint of Jehovah's Witnesses back in 1952 Question from Readers [w52 9/1, pp. 542, 543] and the viewpoint of Jehovah's Witnesses today [w10 4/15, p. 10, ¶14] is that we have come to realize in 2010 that the "generation" to which Jesus referred at Matthew 24:34 referred to the period of time that spanned the length of the sign of Christ's presence, which generation began in 1914 and will eventually come to an end, during which generation the lives of Jesus' anointed brothers as a group overlap.

    @djeggnog

  • Gary1914
    Gary1914

    Hello dieggnog:

    In your post you compare changes to the doctrine of the Catholic Church to changes in the doctrine of Jehovah's Witnesses. Does the comparison make your argument stronger? Remember, Jehovah's spirit is not with the Catholic Church, it is with the Organization of Jehovah's Witnesses and so contined doctrinal changes by the Catholic Church should not be viewed in the same light as with Jehovah's organization.

    While I do not believe the prior explanations of "generation" were a "lie", I cannot comprehend why a religion that claims to have God's continuing holy spirit cannot get it right the first time, or even the second time, but has to go and flip-flopping around causing it's members to become confused and somewhat alarmed.

    You quote:

    [Jesus] EVIDENTLY meant that the lives of the anointed who were on hand when the sign began to become evident in 1914 would overlap with the lives of other anointed ones who would see the start of the great tribulation. That generation had a beginning, and it surely will have an end. [w10 4/15, p. 10, ¶14]

    Whenever the organization uses the word EVIDENTLY it is a clear signal that they are guessing. All of this is pure speculation and will probably be changed again.

    These constant changes by Jehovah (because this is his earthly organization) makes the religion, and it's God, look weak and schizophrenic.

  • ProdigalSon
    ProdigalSon

    Nothing really changed, except that 1914 became a non-issue. Even though the whole religion is built on that year, very few noticed the problem.

    The reflection from Golden Calves can be very blinding.

  • blondie
    blondie

    I know that some never got the change in 1995, let alone the 2 lesser changes since then. It's like the Emperor's New Clothes, no one wants to admit they don't see it.

  • Sapphy
    Sapphy

    On the rare occasion doctrine is discussed among my JW friends, the attitude is "I've never cared about / understood the chronology stuff". Usually followed by:

    "We're the only ones who preach/ don't believe the trinity / it's still God's organisation"

    I think the society can do what they like doctrinally, as long as they don't take the paradise away.

  • wannabefree
    wannabefree

    Sapphy ... I agree ... I wonder if this is especially true with born-ins. I try to point out the generation teaching to my wife on several occasions and she says it doesn't matter, it never has been an issue with her, and then spouts off the preaching, trinity, God's organization.

    But for me, a convert, the generation was a BIG emphasis used during my study back in the mid 80's. The generation was given big emphasis as proof of where we are in the stream of time.

  • wasblind
    wasblind

    Hello DJeggnogg,

    In the October 1, 2010 watchtower on page 31, the WTS claims to be empowered by Holy Spirit.

    as we know the Holy Spirit causes things to become. Concerning the Generation teaching on page

    97 and also on page 200 In the reasoning book, it is written that the generation that was alive in

    1914 will also see the complete destruction of the present wicked world. The reasoning book proves

    without a doubt, that this is the Generation who saw the beginning, and that they would be the ones to see the end

    and that it would most definilty occur because they used the word will. Jehovah Witnesses believed this, and taught

    it in the name of Jehovah. With this recent change, that promise has been taken from one generation

    and given to the generation that overlaps. I also agree with Gary, when they use the word EVIDENTLY

    it shows that they are guessing when they come up with new light.

  • wasblind
    wasblind

    DJeggnogg says: " There is no reason for anyone to be attempting to force two [generations] into becoming a single generation since Jesus specifically spoke of "this generation," which is not two generations, but only one.

    Reasoning from the Scriptures book shows that the WTS has in fact attempted this in their recent generation change, because all through this book it makes it clear that it is the Generation that was ALIVE in 1914 who would be the ones to see the end .

    And now by adding an overlapping generation it is the WTS who has attempted to force two generations into one. not us

  • wasblind
    wasblind

    DJeggnogg, please go through your reasoning book before responding

    If there is anything in that book I may have missed maybe you can point it out

    I have an opened mind.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    djeggnog.....The thing about Exodus 1:6 is that it states that that particular generation did come to an end of its own accord. The way the 1914 generation is defined now, it is indefinite; it could technically go on forever. The only way the generation could come to an end is if Armageddon comes; it cannot end of its own accord. That is because "the sign that became evident in 1914" is something the Society regards as ongoing and will continue to go on until Armageddon. It is purportedly as much in evidence nowas it was in 1914. Compare also with the generation that must pass away before the Israelites entered the Promised Land (Numbers 32:13). That too is a generation with a definite end, and a cohort that was comprised of people of various ages who were alive at the time of the exodus and early wanderings (who "did evil" in God's sight). That generation lasted no more than 40 years, for the wilderness wanderings were no more than 40 years. That's how long it took for them to die off. Yet people like Joshua were alive at the same time as "that generation"; his life overlapped with that of Moses. But that doesn't make him part of "that generation" merely because Moses's life overlapped with his.

    Now looking at the dates, Jacob at age 84 marries both Leah and Rachel in 1774 BC (after his uncle Laban does a bait and switch) so that his 11th son, Joseph, is finally born to Rachel in 1767 BC. (Rachel dies when Benjamin, Jacob's most beloved son, is born some six years later in 1761 BC.) Joseph dies in 1657 BC at the age of 110.

    The Joseph analogy completely breaks down with the Watchtower chronology. The date of Jacob's descent (with the Seventy) to Egypt is 1728 BCE. Joseph thus lives another 70 years in Egypt after this. The sojourn, as you recall, is 215 years. Moses was 80 years old when the sojourn ends, so he was born about 65 years after Joseph died. You define the generation of Exodus 1:6 as including those who were alive when Joseph and his brothers died, and we know that Levi died some 20 years after Joseph he died at age 137 (Exodus 6:16) and Joseph at 110, and Levi was born less than 7 years before Joseph was (Genesis 29:30-35, 30:24-25). Now surely Levi's son Kohath was alive at the time Levi died, right? He lived for 133 years and he himself was Moses' grandfather (Exodus 6:18). With people living with ages up to 137 years, how could it be that Moses did not know his own grandfather? Indeed Kohath himself is listed among the Seventy who went into Egypt (dated by the Society to 1728 BCE) in Genesis 46:11, and the generation in Exodus 1:6 is directly related to the Seventy in v. 5, so Kohath himself is part of "that generation" who went into Egypt and passed away before the Pharaoh who "knew not Joseph" came on the scene, who became king before Moses was born. Yet Amram was a contemporary of Kohath when Kohath died and Amram's life overlapped with that of Moses. There simply was never a time when contemporaries alive at the time of Kohath's death could die prior to the birth of Moses. But if the generation is simply those of Joseph's cohort (e.g. the Seventy), then these could well have died before Moses was born.

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