@free2beme:
A large large part to my fading away in 1997 was the change in understanding on the generation teaching. I had that teaching shoved down my throat for decades, growing up, from my mother. A woman, who now claims, this teaching was never that big of a deal to her and claims she hardly mentioned it to me. Wow! I do not remember a time in which it was not mentioned. Like someone took that Men In Black memory device and erased it all. Anyway, as far as I know, it is still seen the same way.
I'm writing this reply to you, but not just to you, for there are others here that have expressed many of these sentiments that you express in your post, so I speak to all of you, including those lurking this thread.
Jehovah's Witnesses are all of them doing exactly the same thing, to wit, making a study of the Bible. They are all doing this together as a group of folks that love what things they have been learning about Jehovah God, about the ransom sacrifice of His son, the Lord Jesus Christ, and about God's eternal purpose with respect to God's kingdom and this earth. When one has actually taken the time to read the Bible, it's really, quite frankly, the greatest story ever told by anyone!
Anyone that reads the Bible can do what you did in finding fault in any of the things that Jehovah's Witnesses teach with which you do not and cannot believe to be true and then base your fading and leaving the truth on the teaching with which you do not or cannot agree. However, as I have said here many times in this thread, I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses, and while I have learned much about what things the Bible teaches as a consequence of having studied the Bible with other Jehovah's Witnesses as a group that loves the things that we have learned in connection with Jehovah God and His eternal purpose, one of the things I've also learned is that we are all imperfect people.
I say this just to make the point that I've known since I was a young child (and that was a very long time ago!) how to measure words, that words have weight, that words have power even as the word of God has power. I've read many of our publications that have been released over the past 100+ years, but I was doing this to see the growth of God's organization, to verify for myself whether Jehovah's Witnesses are a part of God's organization, his earthly organization based on their willingness to adjust their teachings based on hindsight or on a misunderstanding of a passage or two in the Bible.
When one knows the power of words as I do, one learns to overlook the shortcomings, the mistakes, of others, which becomes an easy thing to do when one is realizes that the one speaking, the one exhibiting the shortcomings, the one making the mistakes, has no impure motive. Almost daily I work with lawyers and almost every day I am reminded of the wisdom of the words: "It's not what you say, but it's what you can prove."
Over the years there have been many Jehovah's Witnesses that have said things ostensibly based on the Bible that I knew at the time, upon my hearing them say these things, that they couldn't prove scripturally. Over the years there have been many Jehovah's Witnesses that have said things regarding the mundane elemental matters of life (things like education, science, careers) that I knew at the time, upon my hearing them say these things, that they couldn't prove either.
Most people today that are said to be "not in the truth" engage in hero worship, that is to say, they tend to make certain people heroes, and to look up to these heroes as they go through life. Sports figures, school coaches, politicians, school teachers, preachers, actors and actresses, singers, businesspersons, Ophah and Dr. Phil are viewed as celebrities and become mentors to these people, for to be a celebrity or a mentor is to be a god. Many Jehovah's Witnesses today are themselves guilty of hero worship, of looking up to heroes, even worshipping at their feet, so to speak, as if the local elders are someone more than what we all are: Servants of the Most High and nothing more.
Some of you here that have left God's organization are still as guilty as those that continue to be a part of God's organization of hero worship: Viewing the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses as if they are something more than what they are at this time: Servants of the Most High and nothing more. Yes, they as is the case with the faithful and the discreet slave have the prospect after their death, as do all who are of this "anointed" class, to become kings and priests with Jesus in the heavenly kingdom, but they haven't died yet and as we all learned when Raymond Franz left the faith (if we didn't already know before!), we are all imperfect human beings and are subject to fall away from the truth at any time. "Let him that thinks he is standing beware that he does not fall," Paul says at 1 Corinthians 10:12.
But I don't read WTS publications or even the Bible the way most of you here read the Bible and WTS publications, and I don't see Jehovah's Witnesses, whether they be the elders in the local congregation, or circuit overseers or district overseers or members of the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses, as being more than imperfect men, fellow servants of God, my spiritual brothers, but not celebrities, not heroes, not gods.
Jehovah is going to figure all of this out Himself, for I'm sure He knows which one of you were stumbled over something you heard an elder say or someone you read in our publications, and God knows how you felt then and how you feel now since He knows what's in our hearts, so I do not judge you, except to say that it was foolish for any of you here to leave God's organization due to the imperfections of these men or the flawed statements you may have read over the years in WTS publication that may or may not inferred things that you knew couldn't be true.
As I sought to point out, over the past 100+ years, God's organization has had to shed many false ideas and notions that it came to discover weren't true, which to me says a lot about the growth of God's organization over the years. Those who left God's organization over such flawed teaching did so prematurely, since over the years we have abandoned many of those flawed teachings, and as a result, by staying together and being united in our faith in God, we know so much more now about the truth -- God's word is truth -- than we did 100+ years ago.
We know that the Bible teaches that "hell" is gravedom, that God is no part of a Trinity, that purgatory, like hellfire, doesn't exist, that the soul is not immortal, and that many of the dead are asleep awaiting resurrection, and that acceptance of Jesus' ransom by our exercising faith in Him by good works toward God is what saves us and not good works toward men. Christendom doesn't know these things and as a result it stumbles because it is in a state of spiritual darkness, but not any of you here that have ever studied the Bible with Jehovah's Witnesses. Try as you might, you will always sound like one of Jehovah's Witnesses, even when you are bad-mouthing the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses for this or for that, because you were taught Bible truths that Christendom has never been taught.
But the problem that you have that many of those who are actively Jehovah's Witnesses today have is that you don't realize that words have power, have weight, have meaning, and when you do not comprehend what they mean and ascribe attributes to them that the words alone simply do not have, you have no one but yourself to blame for the kind of conclusions you reach -- wrong conclusions -- since you were too stubborn, too haughty, too arrogant to ask someone more intelligent than you are, to ask what a certain word, a certain phrase, a certain sentence, a certain paragraph means.
Jehovah's Witnesses pick up the phone and call other Jehovah's Witnesses that are concerned about the things they read in the Bible and the things that read in our publications, and these Jehovah's Witnesses are not necessarily elders in one's local congregation, but mature brothers and sisters in the local congregation, and might also be calls to Patterson or letters to Brooklyn requesting a clarification of something they might have read in one or more WTS publications, or may have heard someone say in the local congregation or at a circuit assembly or a district convention.
I have mentioned this in this thread already, but I'm fleshing this point out now. I have said above and I repeat here again that words have weight, power, meaning, and by our being united in our faith in God, we know so much more now about the truth than we did 100+ years ago. We are all disciples, including the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses. We are all learners, which is what a disciple is, a learner, and every one of Jehovah's Witnesses today is learning at the same pace as is everyone else, which helps us to speak in agreement and not be found contradicting.
Disputing some explanation provided in the Watchtower, for example, or altogether rejecting something that one reads in the Watchtower doesn't require that we contradict, but does require that we inform a mature brother or sister, or even write a letter to Brooklyn, whenever we should disagree or have a problem with something we read in the Watchtower. If it should be decided that we were wrong, an adjustment will be made, but if it should be decided that for reasons we do not really know, no adjustment will be made at that time does not mean that no adjustment will be made at some point in the future. This has happened so many times over the past 100+ years that it makes no sense for anyone that knows this to leave God's organization as if there was somewhere else to go.
There are many brothers who serve as elders that are not really as studious as are some, maybe not as studious as you are, that have a short fuse and, having an educational lack, they cannot really comprehend when someone is merely asking a question. I can tactfully tell anyone whatever it is I feel I need to tell them, but I realize that not everyone has this "gift." On many an occasion, the questions posed may not really be understood by these elders, and so, when asked, they are too embarrassed to tell you that they do not know the answer, and may even accuse you of disloyalty or murmuring against the teaching of God's organization, which is a serious allegation for anyone to make about anyone.
But I'm not the Lord Jesus Christ and I have no interest in pretending that I am. I just wanted that of you here that are grumbling and angry over the decision that you yourself made and about so many things that I kinda understand how you feel, but I do not feel the way you do about any of Jehovah's people, because I have forgiven much over the years, and I've learned how to forgive other Witnesses like myself their shortcomings; I have learned not to expect perfection from imperfect people, even from non-Witnesses, and this is why I tend to get along with everyone, for I learned not to expect perfection from imperfect people in either word or deed. That servant that was such a celebrity, that sister or brother that you worshipped admiring, were living this the same world in which you live and succumbed to the very same pressures that others have succumbed, not because they are gods by any stretch, but because they are as imperfect as you and I.
You may need to learn how to forgive them their trespasses just as you have yourself committed such, for unless you forgive those that you worshipfully admired their trespasses, in overstepping their authority as Christians by giving many of their brothers and sisters advice as to the non-pursuit of careers that might have permitted them to provide things for their families that today they cannot because they foolishly listened to them pontificate about the nearness of the end of this system of things as if they knew more than did Jesus (Matthew 24:36).
They are guilty of persuaded others to do things that were against their own interests and against the interests of their own families, but if you listened to what they advised so that you went on to make decisions that have adversely affected your life and the lives of your family based on your putting faith in the words of men that went beyond the things that you knew had been written as to our knowing "that day and hour," then you are also guilty of disregarding what Jesus instructed all of his followers to do: "Pay attention to how you listen," Jesus said, "for ... what he imagines he has will be taken away from him." (Luke 8:18 )
But if you did not do this, if, instead, you put your trust in the men you celebrated, in nobles, your faith in the thoughts and sayings of earthling man, whose thoughts have all perished at death. If we ourselves are guilty of ignoring Jesus' advice to "pay attention to how [we] listen," and are guilty of having put our truth in the sayings of men and not in what God's word says, then we must now reconsider our steps and check our misdirected anger, for happy are those who have put their trust in Jehovah and not in these celebrated men "to whom no salvation belongs," who have put their truth in the One who sent His son to help us, to release us from the bondage of the reasonings of such men, the God that released us when we were bound. (Psalm 146:3-7)
You want to be ignorant and beat me up, and make me the "whipping boy" for every elder you've ever hated that are teaching things with which you no longer agree, I'm ok with that; I can take everything that you can dish out and more. I'm not fazed by any of it. I'm very comfortable being one of Jehovah's Witnesses, and I'm proud of having been taught by Jehovah, for to be knowledgeable about God and His word is a blessing that is without equal.
However, I never ask and I have not been in a Kingdom Hall for a meeting since 1997. I would be willing to say that a lot has changed. It was a great sales tool though, much like 1975. Of course, that never happened either and Jehovah's Witnesses never cared about it.
You have heard and are spreading a rumor. Jehovah's Witnesses officially made no predictions about 1975 in our literature, and although some among us became so enthusiastic in 1970, or some five years before 1975, there is absolutely no one that can produce a single shred of evidence that Jehovah's Witnesses ever took a firm position as to 1975 beyond proclaiming it to be the year that marked 6,000 years of mankind's creation (from 4026 BC). While you are free to believe what you want, free to think 1975 to have been "a great sales tool," the 6,000th year of mankind's existence is officially all that 1975 represented to us and nothing more.
There wasn't anything magical about this year, except to those among Jehovah's Witnesses that decided to make 1975 more significant than it really was, and these ones that ran ahead of God's organization and had begun to spread this man-made doctrine from one Witness to another -- which false doctrine spread like wildfire from one end of the globe to the other! -- used it as a tool to persuade folks in their respective communities to come to our Kingdom Halls, and this doctrine ended up causing many not ready for baptism to submit to water baptism, which they would not necessarily have done but for the lie that they were told by some Jehovah's Witnesses about 1975 which was the tool of persuasion in the first place.
Yes, the controversy over 1975 did occur, and to learn in those days how so many Jehovah's Witnesses had all dedicated themselves to a date, rather than to Jehovah, was not just an amazing thing to learn about certain folks you had no idea wee materialistic in their thinking, but even shocking! I had no idea that there folks among us -- people that were called "Jehovah's Witnesses" -- that had been in such a spending frenzy, people that were actually seriously scheming how they would never had to pay off the debt that they were racking up from the purchases they made during the early-70s as 1975 loomed closer, reasoning that their unconscionable purchases would actually be free since the end of this wicked system of things and the incoming world government under Christ Jesus would mean the collapse of the monetary systems of this world.
Nothing in our literature indicated that Jehovah's Witnesses knew something that the world-at-large did not as to when this world would end, and yet some were highlighting the significance of 1975 in the public addresses they were giving from the podium. I cared about hearing how, in the subsequent years, some of the friends sought to dig themselves out from a virtual mountain of debt, with the occasional discovery of parked vehicles were being repossessed from the Kingdom Hall parking lots during meetings. Families were both seeking and moving to more modest dwellings, and transferring to other congregations as many of them felt obliged (or were forced!) to file bankruptcy to obtain relief from their hastily entered-into post-1975 financial obligations.
You say Jehovah's Witnesses never cared about 1975, but you're wrong; the vast majority of us did as thieves and materialistic greedy persons were exposed as being among us in those days. It was tough to hear the kind of materialistic thinking that was going on in the minds of folks that I had formerly considered mature brothers and mature sisters, people, as it turned out, were the "unrighteous ... greedy persons" of whom the apostle Paul spoke at 1 Corinthians 6:9, 10, that "will not inherit God's kingdom," unrepentant wrongdoers that were really thieves who did not "adorn the teaching of our Savior, God, in all things," in repudiating ungodliness and worldly desires, not living with "soundness of mind and righteous and godly devotion" in view as we await the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ. (Titus 2:10-13) But such cases were heard, and all such unrepentant "wicked persons" were disfellowshipped from God's clean organization. (1 Corinthians 5:11-13)
The point is, Jehovah is a holy God and when we gather together for worship in God's spiritual temple, we have entered God's house and are standing is a holy place, a place where uncleanness is impermissible, where the unclean person is just not permitted to stand, let alone enter. The spiritual person understands this and he or she walks by spirit; the physical person does not understand this, and the fleshly Christian is fleshly, he or she does not have the mind of Christ, for such persons are not ready for solid food, which belongs to those that are mature Christians. (Galatians 5:16; 1 Corinthians 2:14-16; 3:1-3; Hebrews 5:14)
@djeggnog wrote:
The word "generation" as used by Jesus at Matthew 24:34, we now know to have been a reference to the period of the sign of Jesus' invisible presence which began in the year 1914 and that this generation, or period, will end at the conclusion of this system of things. The words "this generation" as Jesus used at Matthew 24:34 had been improperly applied to the people that were living in 1914, which Jehovah's Witnesses now know to be not the case. Of course, you are free to believe what you want to believe.
@wasblind wrote:
The (Holy) spirit directed organization, improperly applied what Jesus said in Matthew 24:34, taught it as a fact (all through the reasoning book ), and as they have stated in the sept 15 2010 WT, what they write is not from men but from God.
[Deuteronomy] 18:22 says: " when the prophet speaks in the name of Jehovah (jehovah Witnesses) and the word does not occur or come true, that is the word that Jehovah did not speak. With [presumptuousness] the prophet spoke it (on page 242 in the reasoning book they admit it's part of a prophecy in their canned question, the WTS claimed the generation that saw the events in 1914 would be the ones to see the end)You must not get [frightened] of him.
In the Reasoning book, the book from which you are so fond of quoting in this thread, there were suggested responses that one might give in response to someone that should say to you anything that resembles anything contained in one of the subheadings when discussing the "Last Days" -- which btw is the name of the chapter that began on page 234 -- "if you are not yet familiar" with the topic yourself. This is what it says on page 7 of the Reasoning book, but it would appear that you merely assumed you understood the purpose of this book, and did not understand its purpose. "Keep in mind that this book is only an aid. The Bible is the authority." These words are on page 8 of the Reasoning book. Did you bother to read them, to ask someone to explain the meaning of them, to explain to you the meaning of the words "this book is only an aid" meant?
You refer in your post to page 242 on which page are the following two subheadings: (1) "How do you know that some future generation won't fit the prophecy even better than this one?" (2) We won't see the end in our lifetime." But you reasoned that something you read in your copy of the Bible at Deuteronomy 18:22 was applicable to the point you were making, so you quoted from this verse to accuse me of being a false prophet, isn't that right? You were once one of Jehovah's Witnesses, too, so if your application of Deuteronomy 18:22 was proper, then you, too, would also would have been a false prophet when you were yourself one of Jehovah's Witnesses, would you not?
So let me get this straight, let me understand your thinking on this matter: You took a verse from the Bible that you thought to be an appropriate one in castigating me as being a false prophet, because I am most definitely one of Jehovah's Witnesses, but did you never learn during the entire time that you were studying and associating with Jehovah's Witnesses what Deuteronomy 18:20-22 meant? Did you really think that you were smart enough to be able to bluff someone like me, someone that is really what you are not, someone that is really one of Jehovah's Witnesses with an expansive knowledge of the Scriptures, with some bogus application of Deuteronomy 18:22?
Let me "school" you, son: You're not smart enough, you lack the spiritual capacity or authority to speak the word of God to me and you're very wrong here. How does one test whether a prophecy contained in the Bible is from Jehovah God. Number 1: The prophecy must be fulfilled. Number 2: The prophecy is in harmony with God’s commandments. Number 3: The prophecy promotes true worship. Did you know that Deuteronomy 13:1-3 parallels what Deuteronomy 18:20-22 says?
I'm going to assume here that you understand what the word "parallels" means, but it is clear to me that you didn't understand how inappropriate your application of Deuteronomy 18:22 was to this discussion we were having here in connection with the meaning of Jesus' words at Matthew 24:34, and how no one in their right mind would ever cite Deuteronomy 18:22 in connection with what you evidently thought you understood (but didn't understand) when you were reading that portion of the Reasoning book on page 242.
what was the prophecy ? on page 234 in the reasoning book it states: " the present wicked system of things which extended world wide. entered its last days in 1914 and some of the generation alive then will also be on hand to witness its complete end in the great tribulation"
The Reasoning book is not a book of prophecies. On page 234 of this book, in the chapter entitled "Last Days," is provided the following definition for what the phrase "last days" means, and the following is a quote from the Reasoning book on page 234:
Definition: The Bible uses the expression "last days" to refer to the concluding time period leading up to a divinely appointed execution that marks the end of a system of things. The Jewish system with its worship built around the temple in Jerusalem experienced its last days from 33 to 70 C.E. What occurred then was pictorial of what would be experienced in a greatly intensified way and on a global scale at a time when all nations would be facing the execution of judgment decreed by God. The present wicked system of things, which extends worldwide, entered its last days in 1914, and some of the generation alive then will also be on hand to witness its complete end in the "great tribulation."
This is not a prophecy, but is merely a definition for what Jehovah's Witnesses mean when we use the words, "last days." What with both the articles in the February 15, 2008 Watchtower and in the April 15, 2010 Watchtower, it is now clear to us that we had mistakenly understood the "generation" to which Jesus referred at Matthew 24:34 to refer to those people that were alive in 1914 "when the world entered its last days," and that some of the people that were alive in 1914 would "also be on hand to witness [the complete end of the present wicked system of things] ... in the great tribulation." What things you read in these two above-referenced Watchtower magazines reflect current prophetic interpretation of God's word as discerned by Jehovah's Witnesses worldwide. What is our current prophetic interpretation is not a prophecy at all, but a commentary on what Jehovah's Witnesses today believe Jesus' words at Matthew 24:34 to mean.
Jesus specifically stated at Matthew 24:36 that nobody knows "that day and hour," so you cannot possibly convert our commentary on Matthew 24:34 to be the same as a prophecy from Jehovah. Jehovah's Witnesses seek to understand Bible prophecy and our interpretation of it might be wrong as is evident by our having wrongly concluding that "this generation" referred to the people that were alive in the year 1914. This was a wrong conclusion, a wrong interpretation of Jesus' words at Matthew 24:34, but our wrong interpretation would not be a prophecy, for a prophecy, as you are using the word, would be our going as far as to predict a date for some future event, such as the end of this wicked system of things, when it was Jesus himself that predicted the end of this system of things would come in the last days, at the climax of the conclusion of the system of things in which we are now living, and Jehovah's Witnesses do not make predictions. We only relate to others the prophecies that we read in the Bible so as to give folks confidence that God's word is reliable.
Jehovah's Witnesses believe, #1, that this prophecy at Matthew 24:34 must be fulfilled. Jehovah's Witnesses believe, #2, that this prophecy at Matthew 24:34 is in harmony with God’s commandments. Jehovah's Witnesses believe, #3, that this prophecy at Matthew 24:34 promotes true worship. But Jehovah's Witnesses do not predict when the prophecy will be fulfilled, for if we were to do that, then we would be making a prediction, which we do not and cannot do since (1) nobody knows that day or hour and (2) nobody knows on what day Jesus is coming. (Matthew 24:36, 42)
Jehovah's Witnesses now know that their previous understanding with respect to what Jesus meant by the words, "this generation," at Matthew 24:34 was incorrect and did not refer to people that were alive in the year 1914, but that "this generation" refers to the period when the sign began, which period, or generation, will come to an end at Armageddon, which is the climax of the conclusion of this system of things.
@NewYork44M wrote:
The fact that the governing body can throw out the "shingle generation" suggests that they don't care. The fact that the r&f accept the new light suggests that the governing body does not need to care.
@djeggnog wrote:
This is a new one for me: What is this "shingle generation" about which Jehovah's Witnesses do not care?
@caliber wrote:
Here is a perfect example of some tactics DJ uses... in a hidden mocking way he belittles this persons spelling mistake and [tries] to "pretend ' that he can't understand what the person is saying... Everyone with an eye and a butt hole knows the man meant to say single ! What I find more disturbing than those who don't understand is those who understand and play dumb for a few seconds to suit their purpose. Why this spelling mistake focused in on really hurts me too , is because I have struggled with some dyslexia myself !
I don't care that you have had to struggle with or are currently suffering from a learning disability. We are all imperfect human beings so we all have things with which we struggle every day. I wasn't using a tactic in asking @NewYork44M what it was he meant by "shingle generation." You wanted to guess what he meant; I did not want to guess. It's not what you might understand someone is saying in their post, but what my understanding is of what is written in someone's post. I make typographical errors all of the time; sometimes I do something in my word processor that causes errors to occur in my posts. In this very thread, @lisaBObeesa brought a serious typo to my attention and I posted a correction in a subsequent post. What does any of this have to do with any tactic and your dyslexia?
Would you belittle a person with a hair lip because you can't hear him speak clearly or who wears coke-bottle glasses because he can't see clearly ?Do you think being Christ-like would include is unnecessary type of mocking or humor ??
I don't know what a "hair lip" is, but I might belittle someone with a lisp, or someone that wears bifocals because they're blinder than the proverbial bat, because I don't say things in such a way due to a desire on my part to be politically correct, but because I have a big sense of humor and I do not want folks to take themselves too seriously even as I try not to take myself too seriously.
Do you believe that Jesus lacked a sense of humor? While ever the teacher, read Matthew 17:24-27 and get back to me. Also, while you are at it, read Matthew 14:25-32, and tell me that you cannot imagine Jesus' apostles kidding Peter about his losing confidence in his ability to walk on water as had Jesus only to find himself sinking. Jesus was a man the same as you and I, except unlike you and I, he didn't sin, and it not a sin for me to laugh at you for even suggesting what you have here suggested to me. Just like you have a personality and I have a personality, so did Jesus have one.
@caliber wrote:
I wish to add further to the above thought ..... Not everyone who have left are God hating , lazy, weak- minded loveless, evil sexual deviant perverts ... even if it says so right in the Watchtower ! A lot like myself are not even DF or DA , but remain in limbo to help and maintain natural, normal family ties.(which the Wt have sought to take away )
@djeggnog wrote:
Then you are what I would call a counterfeit Christian, and, of course, you know well what you yourself are without my telling you this, but counterfeits do not love God and, in fact, are haters of God, and whether they be "evil sexual deviant perverts" or not is besides the point since all such wicked persons will end up in the symbolic lake of fire, correct?
Those marital ties [that you] seek to maintain through your two-facedness toward God's organization will ultimately be broken at the revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ if it should turn out that have not been obedient to the good news. (2 Thessalonians 1:7-9) There is no "limbo" in God's organization, no proverbial "fence" either, for one is either on Jesus' side of the fence or they're not (Satan owns the fence). There is absolutely no limping in Christ. (Matthew 12:30; 1 Kings 18:21) Jehovah's Witnesses cannot take away the "normal family ties" that you currently enjoy with your family; only you can do that, and just know that you're just lying to yourself whenever you should say this.
Notice, @caliber, that I have in the above quote corrected one of my typos here for I had originally written, "Those marital ties to seek to maintain through your two-facedness toward God's organization...," when what I had meant to write was, "Those marital ties that you seek to maintain through your two-facedness toward God's organization...." I make a lot of typos, you see, and none of them matter if you are not smart enough to see the proverbial forest for all of the trees.
For example, did you miss the point I was making when I quoted Matthew 12:30 ("He that is not on my side is against me, and he that does not gather with me scatters.") or the one I was making when I also quoted 1 Kings 18:21 ("How long will you be limping upon two different opinions? If Jehovah is the true God, go following him; but if Ba´al is, go following him.")? Or did you fail to open the Bible to these scriptures as do so many self-assured and active Jehovah's Witnesses during congregation meetings that have no real interest in what things the Bible says?
That's ok, for we know there are seat warmers just like you in our midst. If your only interest in attending meetings is in the hope that those "normal family ties" will not become severed, let me tell you again about "limbo" state: Jesus is dividing families over the kingdom issue as if it were a sword. Jesus stated that he had come "to start a fire on the earth," and [adherence to the righteous standards for which the kingdom of God stands would be the cause]. (Luke 12:49)
Jesus also stated that he had come to put a sword, not "peace upon the earth," and this "sword" has been over the kingdom issue that Jehovah's Witnesses preach, which is the real cause of "division" within the family circle, for as Jesus stated about this division at Matthew 10:34, 35, whether it is now while you are a counterfeit Christian or later, such division will certainly come between "a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a young wife against her mother-in-law."
What's funny and sad at the same time, @caliber, is that you think that you're smarter than the Most High and that you "plan" will have success!
@caliber:
A lady earlier quoted numerous WT's that showed otherwise ..there is indeed a person here lying to themselves and I think 99% can see who that is , I have no intention of [requoting] her words go back and read them again without your WT rosy glasses on !
I read the lady's quotes and found them to be proof of nothing but her ability to cut and paste. Not one of the quotes she posted were relevant to this particular topic; she was off-topic.
Again another tactic DJ uses (minimizing.) ..... you're taking the Wt's "suggestions "too seriously..(you know obedience in all things is preached all the time !) (these are paraphrased thoughts only )
What do you mean? What you say here isn't at all comprehensible to me.
Another tact (denial )... that's not what the WT teaches now... they didn't think people would take it that way (paraphrased idea )
What do you mean by "tact" here? The word "tact" doesn't mean the same as "tactic," which is why I am asking you what it is you meant when you used here the word "tact." I could guess, but I'd rather you tell me, and if you think I'm making sport of your inability to express yourself so that you sound literate, I'm not; you are what you are, and I don't want to guess what it is you were trying to say to me, ok?
@wasblind wrote:
All through out the Bible, God used imperfect men to produce what we know as the Bible today, yes they were directed by holy spirit, because truth never changes or needs adjusting.
@djeggnog wrote:
No one has said that truth changes or needs adjusting; you are saying this for a reason, but I have not said this. The fact that God used imperfect men to produce the Bible is true, that they were inspired by holy spirit is true, but these two facts have nothing at all to do with what you say here about truth never changing or needing adjustments since the only thing that changed was our understanding of Jesus' words "this generation" at Matthew 24:34, and nothing more.
@wasblind wrote:
Hey DJ, whenever the JW's talk about " present truths " which I'm sure you have heard that means that what they believe to be the "truth" today can be changed in the future the latest generation change is a prime example
Our interpretation of a scripture might change, making an adjustment necessary, but, as I have said, the truth is the truth and never changes or needs adjustment. But let me say this to you: Do you believe that Jehovah zaps Jehovah's Witnesses or the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses with His holy spirit? Did you ever read anything in your Bible or in any of the WTS publications to suggest that God's spirit is operating supernaturally upon any of Jehovah's Witnesses? I ask you this before many active Jehovah's Witnesses have been persuaded by other Jehovah's Witnesses to believe that if our WTS publications should direct that we, as Jehovah's Witnesses, do this or do that, or one of our interpretations of a particular scripture should be in error that this would be proof positive that Jehovah's Witnesses do not have God's spirit and Jehovah is not directing us as an organization.
However, what these same folks that have this rather "interesting" understanding of what it means when Jehovah's Witnesses say that we are "led by holy spirit" fail to realize is that Jehovah never gets it wrong. They don't realize that Jehovah doesn't zap anyone with his holy spirit, but that Jehovah's Witnesses are led by what things we read in the Bible and what we discern by the things we read, so that it's we that might get it wrong at time, but we are not unwilling to adjust our points of view when it becomes necessary to do so, such as when we realize that our understanding of what the holy spirit says in God's word was mistaken. God's holy spirit speaks through His inspired word and often it is in hindsight that we come to realize when it is that we have misunderstood what the holy spirit says, and when we do, we make the necessary adjustments in order that what things we teach as Jehovah's Witnesses are in harmony with what the holy spirit actually does say and not with what he may have thought the holy spirit was saying.
@Gary1914:
For your information, not only am I one of Jehovah's Witnesses, but I serve as an elder in my congregation. Surprise!
I don't care if you, like @caliber, are counterfeit Christians, but how exactly does your telling me that you are presently an elder supposed to impress upon me. @Gary 1914? You're not fooling Jehovah; he knows who His true worshippers are, the ones that are worshipping Him with spirit and truth. (John 4:23) Go brag to @caliber or to someone else about your lack of integrity. I have no interest whatsoever in hearing how much of a counterfeit you are. I'm ok with you and @caliber choosing to be such.
I continue in this position for the same reason that many of my fellow elders do. We do not want to lose our friends and family. I, as do many others, know that this religion is bogus and has absolutely no [Biblical] backing, but we endure because of mothers, fathers, [children], grandparents. We [realize] that the only proof that the Governing [Body] represents the [Faithful] and [Discreet] Slave "class" is because they say they do.
Well, that's good for you and the ones you are calling here your "fellow elders." They are not my fellow elders, so I don't much care. However, you continue in this position merely because you are currently flying under the proverbial radar.
We make up field service time, we make up bible studies, we make up the number of return visits. I have gotten quite good at it and have not really been in field service for years although my time is actually above the national average.
I wish you wouldn't make up and reports bogus numbers, but I'm ok with your doing this. Nothing about what you're telling me here that you have been doing strikes me as odd about this kind of fraud that you are telling me here that you've been perpetuating.
I don't know how long I can continue, but right now I am doing the best I can......... I'm holding on.
Ok.
When I hear you speak about minor fulfillments and major fulfillments of Bible prophesy I can only shake my head. When I read how vehemently you defend the ridiculous overlapping generation doctrine I really find it hard to believe. You have truly bought into the Watchtower philosophy one hundred percent. djeggnog We all go through different [emotional] times in our lives and I believe that at this time in your life you really need the Watchtower promises to cling to, to believe in.
Ok.
Just one thing and that is how we are told to treat disfellowshipped persons. Yes, we are told how to treat them. It is even printed in the new elder's book. I am an adult with a family. Why can't I decide for myself to whom I wish to associate with? If someone is a murderer or a pedophile how many witnesses do you know who would want such a person as a friend? On the other hand, if I as an adult wish to associate with a girl who has had a baby out of wedlock or someone who has smoked a cigarette (for examples) I should be able to make those decisions for myself. My feelings should not be dictated to me.
Ok.
In conclusion, fellow board members, I think it is obvious we are wasting our time talking to djeggnog. His mind is made up. The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society has the TRUTH. It reigns supreme. If the Governing Body were Jim Jones, djeggnog would be begging for that cold, cool drink.
So do you fancy yourself here as being a leader on this board? Is your middle name "Caiaphas" by any chance? What is it that makes you think that your opinion of me is worth even a drink of that "Jim Jones" brand Kool-Aid that you would offer me? Here's a couple more questions for you: Do you feel that Jehovah wasted His time drawing you to become associated with His earthly organization, @Gary1914? Do you believe Jehovah makes mistakes? Just curious.
@caliber:
When one puts their whole future in the hands of the WT teaching .... they can do no wrong... ones mind can not allow for it !
My understanding is that Ray Franz is dead now. Isn't this still the case?
@djeggnog
