Ray Franz Was Wrong

by Farkel 144 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  potleg

  Adolph Hitler was a victim of his fathers cruelty but in no way did that excuse the horrors he brought upon millions.

  It seems we get tripped up on the word victim here and what it implies. To say Hitler was a victim himself almost excuses in some small way the things he did.

  There can be no justification.

  Same with the GB. Maybe they were victims of something at sometime in the past, but whatever it was pales in comparison to the damage and destruction they create and perpetrate even now.

  There's just no excuse for them or their actions. They goose step their way through the lives of millions, tearing families apart and demanding unquestioning loyalty and obedience.

  Victims? Give me a break!
• 

  Leolaia

  A person can be both a victim and a perpetrator. People are complex.
• 

  Spade

  Out of the millions of Witnesses, it's obvious why no actual Witnesses come here. All the garbage people unload here.

  So let's here, the alleged complaint is that their publications are code language for some sort mind control project. No “code language” is used here, ppl just unload clear and understandable acidic hate.

  The fact of the matter is if you attend their meetings and in their personal lives they don't talk like that or behave indecently, the only control in action is self-control.
• 

  JW GoneBad

  Cut the guy (Franz) some slack! All of us are guilty by association, whether we are a xjw or still one. Who knows why he was soft on some of the issues or not as outspoken as we would have liked him to be. Maybe he had some obligations to others in the organization (possibly not wanting to put them in a compromising situation) that he no longer was a part of.
• 

  ex-witness

  Peter Medawar, in a review of the book The Phenomenon of Man by Pierre Teilhard de Chardin said something that applies to the GB most appropriately "its author can be excused of dishonesty only on the grounds that before deceiving others he has taken great pains to deceive himself."

  RIP Ray. You helped open a door through which many of us have escaped.
• 

  Farkel

  spade,

  What kind of shit are you smoking?

  Farkel
• 

  Curtains

  farkel, this may be of interest to you from an email Ray sent to brotherdan

  " I am sure you appreciate the need for patience during a time of transition. I feel that there is no experience that cannot bring some benefit, if we're willing to work to that end. Some of those experiences we characterize as negative and unpleasant can often teach more than those we view as pleasurable. At the same time that does not excuse from responsibility those who contributed to our making decisions that we would probably not have made had we not been misinformed. It was probably the rather cavalier, insensitive spirit so often manifest in Governing Body discussions that most disturbed me. "
• 

  Black Sheep

  The way I see it, if a cult member knows there are problems with a doctrine and still abuses family members who don't believe that doctrine, they have become a perpetrator. Their position in the church's hierarchy is irrelevant.
• 

  FlyingHighNow

  The fact of the matter is if you attend their meetings and in their personal lives they don't talk like that or behave indecently, the only control in action is self-control.

  Spade has no self control. Can't stop posting on those apostate sites even if it is a disfellowshipping offense.
• 

  OnTheWayOut

  A person can be both a victim and a perpetrator. People are complex.

  I gotta go with that. A few years ago, on the high recommendations of Blondie, I read MISTAKES WERE MADE, BUT NOT BY ME. Excellent breakdown of how someone gets so far off track before they realize they are doing something immoral.

  A brief example for you- police and district attorneys need to find the guilty people. They know they have the guilty people but don't know twhether they will ultimately be found guilty in a court of law. The police use ridiculously improper procedures to question the accused. Eventually, they refine their interogations techniques to something short of torture and innocent people start confessing to crimes. Also, they learn to plant evidence to ensure that "guilty" people are found guilty. They are sure that what they are doing is for the good of the citizens and they are only doing it to guilty people. If questioned after getting caught, they will still even swear that they only did this when they "knew" the people were guilty.

  A GB member can be led down a similar road. Ray Franz was not able to stay on such a road, but people with too much to lose can stay there.

  Does that mean the GB are not guilty of deceit? No, but it shows how they are victims the same as we were victims. They were given an even higher calling than the average member, so Jehovah gave them more accountability and more latitude to do what was needed. I know that doesn't sit well with everyone's philosophy of "Who's to blame?" It's similar with blaming Nazi guards for putting Jewish prisoners to death. They should have known better, but they went along. They didn't just get there one day and decided to kill people.

  I may not be as forgiving as Ray Franz, but I try to see his side of this. I actually lean toward saying they are not true victims once they see what happens in the Ivory Tower and continue to perpetuate it. But people are complex.