Ray Franz Was Wrong (page 10)

Farkel

:But people are complex.

Crimes against millions of fellow humans in the name of God and for your own selfish interests is a rather simple thing to grasp.

Farkel

Paulapollos

Leolaia really hits the nail on the head.

I cannot say that I think that the GB are deliberate liars, that they have set out to deceive. I certainly don't think that they mis-quote and selectively choose information in the full knowledge that what they are presenting is a lie.

Lady Lee said they are "victims of their own delusions", and I must say that I can think of no better phrase. Here you have a group of men who have been reared on the stories of the organisation being the one true vehicle of God; an organisation that has been attacked mercilessly by Satan, slandered by religious opposers and so forth - and all because of, in the words of the Society, they are "seeking to discern Bible truth." This belief, this persecution and innocence complex is ingrained in these men.

As they have risen through the ranks of the organisation, they have had to face many challenges from without. Every time they have "won" a case at the ECHR, or in the US Supreme Court, their conviction has been bolstered that yes indeed, Jehovah the "God of their forefathers", Rutherford and Russell, is with them. They were taught that it was an irrefutable paradigm that if the organisation survived and grew, Jehovah was guiding them. And as it has indeed survived and prospered, so their conviction has grown.

When we talk about deliberate lying, the organisation don't see it like that. It is the same as the Abraham issue. When you read the WT that talks about Abraham lying about his wife, you notice it never states Abraham lied. Nor does the WT dealing with Rahab. Why? Because it is impossible for these men to conceive that these individuals, ostensibly approved by God, could have knowingly done wrong - so the justification, the whitewashing begins. And so it is with the organisation today. They simply cannot conceive that the approved servants of God, Rutherford, Russell, Knorr and so forth, lied or deceived or did anything with less than pure motives. And so it is presented like that in the WT.

Similarly, the current typical Witness has been raised on this view, and considers the present body to be a group of upstanding men with God's evident approval on them. When the GB say things that you and I would consider to be lies, I don;t think they ever see it like that. They assume that because God doesn't make mistakes, his servants who prophesised about impending Armageddon in 1914, 1925, 1975 and so on, did not do so, because that would mean a mistake was made. So, evidently, the WT writers back then did not mean it like that. And this is what they believe - that everyone who reads the other way has bad motives.

Similarly with the blood issue. They really genuinely believe they are doing God's will. While I'm not advocating belief in God or not, I think what Jesus said (paraphrased) is really spot-on: "There will come a time when they will kill you, and imagine they are rendering a sacred service to God." The GB really do believe they are doing God's will in all matters. They really are trying to be "conscientious Christians." They are doing everything they can to please this image of God they have. And when people think they are doing good.....well, that's when they hurt the most people.

Just like seeking to understand why a rapist commits the crime, does not mean we excuse the crime; so trying to understand why the GB acts like it does, does not mean we excuse their responsibility for their decisions. But I think the ultimate responsibility here lies in human nature - the ability to dogmatise and reinforce our own belief structure, to filter out contrary information, to believe we may even be the sole arbiters of truth. And that, I think, is a failing more pervasive than we like to admit.

PP

flipper

FARKEL- Very good thread. Once again I agree with your thoughts on this one. 90 %. I feel that initially, early on - when GB members FIRST learned and were coming into the JW organization ( pre-GB member membership time ) that they indeed WERE victims AT THAT TIME. But - as they advanced ( I hate that word ) , er, started kissing butt in increasing their positions in the organization into authority positions - by the time they become GB members they are NOT victims in my opinion anymore - they are manipulative perpetrators of a mind control cult's concepts for their own egotistical and financial benefit ! It becomes a corruption of power, control, and dogmatism within them in which they will stop at nothing to promote the WT society's aims & goals. They know full well what they are doing in manipulating the masses of witnesses- and will use & have used unethical tactics to accomplish those aims & goals

flipper

I wanted to add that at some point in dealing with cult leaders - there is a line of demarcation that gets crossed in time in which they transfer over from being a victim- to becoming an informed perpetrator of WT concepts to embolden their own power, control, & positions. Once they've crossed over that line - corruption ensues. Peace out, mr. Flipper

potleg

They are instigators and perpetrators of a morally bankrupt sect that sucks it's energy and sustains itself by snaring hapless victims into a life on total servitude while in return giving back only more burdens, guilt and a never-ending litany of requirements to qualify for an imaginary existance that is being forever postponed.

Scammers, charlatans, destroyers of families, robbers of life. A disgusting self absorbed privileged few heaping vitriolic and hypocritical judgement toward the masses while barking out endless orders and grandiose lies upon the few.

Just had to get that off my chest. I WAS a victim but no more. I will always fight against these criminals with smiling faces. Oh yeah, con-men too.

thetrueone

Potleg

Spade says -

The fact of the matter is if you attend their meetings and in their personal lives they don't talk like that or behave indecently, the only control in action is self-control.

The words of a youth

Someone should tell him that many people here have been involved with this religious cult for many

years longer than his own actual age. Sadly in his lack of experience he has yet to see the damage this corrupt

godly inspired publishing empire has caused people.

The Finger

Thank you it was interesting to read

cyberjesus

Hey Cyb, are you sayin' like Patty Hearst ?

WASBLIND: Yes, she was a victim and then a perpetrator, she got acquitted of her crimes since she experienced Stockholm Syndrome.

Cyberjesus, I don't make excuses for criminals. Everyone has hardship in thier live, yet not all become criminals.

It is a choice to perpetuate the injury. Period period period no excuses exclaimation point.

NN: But then YOU and ME and also everyone who preached the good news of the kingdom are also CRIMINALS, what is your excuse? PERIOD END OF PAGE :-)

cyberjesus

Adolph Hitler was a victim of his fathers cruelty but in no way did that excuse the horrors he brought upon millions.

POTLEG: That my friend is a false analogy, Adolph Hitler was not a victim of NAZISM he was the founder of it. And until it becomes mind control then you are not a victim. At the moment that you can not think for yourself because GOD gets angry and you cant ask because thats from the devil then you become a victim of it.

We can not accuse you of a character flaw if we dont know you. WE ALL FELL FOR IT. I was a faithful JW and wanted to convert more people to my cult and I shunned my family when they were DFD. I worked on the central headquarters in Mexico. I participated in some way with the NO-BLOOD-MASSACRE of the JWs and you too. ARE YOU NOT A VICTIM as well?

cyberjesus

So why were the NAZI leaders found guilty? Because they lost the war. If Germany and Japan had won then the US would be guilty of war crimes, the atomic bomb killed hundreds of thousands in one instant.

Victor's Justice.

Criminals are the ones who are caught breaking the governing law. If I do something that doesnt break that law then I am not a criminal even if that involves killing people. And victims are the people on the other side of the spectrum.

Ask any JW if the GB are criminals and they will say no, because their governing law allows them to do what they do.

Asks us and we will say yes because we are no longer ruled by that law. But to them WE are the criminals.

REALITY is if what you do is allowed by your current set of beliefs it becomes right in your own head. You dont do it to hurt. Unless you do.

Ray Franz Was Wrong

Share this