shelby my very good and most excellent friend,
There is so much about Ray Franz that you do not know, you should ask the Divinity about this.
Farkel
Ray Franz Was Wrong
by Farkel 144 Replies latest jw friends
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AGuest
Ah, dear Daddy-O... the greatest of love and peace to you, MY most excellent friend (you DO know I am smiling BIG time, right now, right??)
And... ummmm... nope. Truth is, I don't wanna know... either way. Because it truly won't add or take away one cubit from MY life span (and, yeah, I can be a little... ummm... "selfish" that way - )
Some believe Mr. Franz to have ended up being a "good" man; others, not so much. Truth is, we really are all sinners, though. I personally don't think about Mr. Franz at all unless something like this comes up (actually, didn't until this post)... because I don't really like thinking about ANY of those men. Including those who may have had a change of heart. But make no mistake: the lives one has misled WHILE one is "in like Flynn" with the WTBTS... or ANY religion... are accountable for. Thus, Paul's ministry... mine... and perhaps Mr. Franz's books (which may be evidence of his particular "change of heart").
Not that I have a problem with changes of heart; truly, I am all for the "prodigal son" - I, myself, am one. But sometimes, what one doesn't know... particularly about another... really won't " hurt" one. I'm a simple girl, dear one, as you well know, and my needs are simple. Knowing about Mr. Franz in this manner requires effort I'm not really willing to undertake. Again, no benefit... or compulsion.
But... I "hear" you, dear Daddy-O. Truly. Unfortunately, I can't do anything more than to leave Mr. Franz in my Lord's hands.
[On another note, we really should do lunch/dinner soon! I can't help hoping, though, that maybe some day, some way, somehow, we'll even get to do it again in PB! Now, THAT was a day to remember (and I do remember most of it!) and one I would LOVE to do over again, JAH willing! Even if just for a week[end] - LOLOLOLOL!]
Stay well, my friend, and take care of your dear self!
Your servant, friend, and a slave of Christ (smile!),
Shel
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still wondering
Farkel
I’ve just read the link provided by good4nothingb from 2002 and it seems that you have changed your opinion on this matter, or rather reversed it.
Am i reading it right?
If so what brought this reversal about?
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PSacramento
I think that Ray was the kind of person that didn't say a bad thing about anyone, I think he may have truly felt that they were victims, victioms of their own delusions or victims of a controlling evil, but victims nevertheless.
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jay-jay-
Here is something to think about...
If the President and Vice President of the WTBTS (before the GB was fully enpowered in Dec. 1975) approached you and asked you to compile what was to become the Aid To Bible Understanding book, and they further told you to keep this book PURE and not to follow organizational dogma...would you personally write down a bunch of lies on chronology supporting the 1914 teaching, or would you tell the PURE TRUTH as directed, about the matter -- which???
If you want to get the details to this situation concerning Raymond Franz, please see the following link and information below:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/39360/3/The-Real-Trutbh-About-Raymond-V-Franz-Revealed
-----------------------snippet from 2nd post made by bjc2012 made eight (8) years ago--------------------------------------------------
I don't have my personal copy of "Crisis of Conscience" yet, but I know you guys are NOT telling me, even shocking me by saying, Raymond Franz was told beforehand, by the President and Vice President of the WTBTS, namely Nathan Knorr and Fred Franz, to
"...keep the Aid Book pure,"
... and yet he purposely decided to "carry the party-line" of phony chronology anyway, continue telling blatant lies (for lack of a better description) when compiling the WTBTS' "Aid To Bible Understanding" Book, so as to continue the subterfuge and lies of the WTBTS that till this day, continue to MISLEAD millions of JWs worldwide???
And still, you people think this guy (Raymond Franz) is still somehow, a good guy???
What???...
I believe all the people who feel this way, need to have their heads examined. And that's my take on all of this.
jj
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brotherdan
Ray was a captive JW like all of us were/are. Even though he couldn't make sense of what the WT had taught and what he had found, he believed it anyway because he WANTED to believe that.
Saying he was not a good guy before you have read CoC is ignorant. Ray was a VERY good guy. He was a victim, like the rest of us. But he DID make a stand for truth and his conscience. He easily could have gotten out of the trouble that he got into by throwing everything away and claiming faith in the WTBS.
Resist the urge to judge people on what they do when they are in a mind control cult. When you are on the outside looking in, you are able to see how obvious the right course is. But when you are stuck inside it is a bit harder (nearly impossible) to see. Ray had nothing to gain by doing what he did. He lived out his life in a very modest way. He did not die rich in any means. But he followed his conscience and I cannot believe that he lost his reward for doing such a thing.
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brotherdan
Also, who of us can even judge anyone as "not a good person"? Is that our right? Are we not jumping to conclusions without knowing the full story? In fact, we don't even PERSONALLY know Ray. And we are going to say he was "not a good person"?
I prefer to be thankful for how many people he helped get out of this cult. I prefer to be thankful that regardless of what he did in his past, he escaped and helped others escape as well. That counts for something.
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caliber
How many of us acted instantly when faced all the facts ?.
Cognitive dissonance
is an uncomfortable feeling caused by holding conflicting ideas simultaneously. The theory of cognitive dissonance proposes that people have a motivational drive to reduce dissonance. They do this by changing their attitudes, beliefs, and actions. [2] Dissonance is also reduced by justifying, blaming, and denying. It is one of the most influential and extensively studied theories in social psychology
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This case of dissonance could also be interpreted in terms of a threat to the self-concept.
[7] The thought, "I am increasing my risk of lung cancer" is dissonant with the self-related belief, "I am a smart, reasonable person who makes good decisions." Because it is often easier to make excuses than it is to change behavior, dissonance theory leads to the conclusion that humans are rationalizing and not always rational
beings .http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance
We can be victims of others but also victims of our own subconscious mind .. the need to preserve and make sense of life !
Ray Franz mentions "reaching his cross-roads " I believe that only at that point can ones rationalizing mind become rational !
You can only understand your former self by atmosphere and the thinking of the times you were living in.
I believe his intent and purpose were honorable given each situation (even supporting the 607 doctrine) ..until he reached his personal cross-roads !!
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undercover
I think he was sincere when he said it, but he was still wrong. He described Jehovah's Witnesses and their relationship with Governing Body members, not as evil people, but as "victims of victims."
I agree with that for the most part.
Yet, the man that wrote "victims of victims" was on the GB - and he was a victim. So those of us who were JWs during his time on the GB were victims of a victim, in a sense.
The difference between Ray Franz and the rest of the GB was that he was a noble man who, when his crisis of conscience hit, tried to do the right thing. And that's when he really became a victim...worse than most of us.
Since then, the GB has not faced the crisis created by the discoveries made during Mr. Franz research and his subsequent removal/leaving. They've covered over the information and propped up false dates with false doctrines. Ray Franz may have been a victim, but the rest of the GB that continues to uphold the lies are not victims, they are the evil that continues to try to push the lies exposed by Ray Franz and others.
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brotherdan
Couldn't have said it better, Caliber. If we are to judge HIM as a bad person for going along with things when he couldn't prove them or even knew that they were faulty, then MOST of us would be judged as "bad" people.
For example, I remember being 15 or 16 and asking my mom this question:
"The lady next door to us reads her bible everyday, treats people kind, feeds the hungry, pays the poor, helps the sick, and is an all around good person. So are we to believe that she will die at Armageddon because she doesn't believe that JWs have the truth? If that is true then Gods justice is totally screwed up! She will get the same punishment as Hitler! He killed millions. He was about as evil as a human can get. And this lady next door is going to have the same consequences?!?"
Of course my mom, the perfect JW, said, "Yes. Jehovah requires us to be in his organization for salvation. She chose not to be. Just like those that died in the flood."
Anyway, it never made sense to me then. And yet, I supported "Jehovah's organization" for MANY more years, teaching people that they had to associate themselves with it to be saved. So was I a bad person for doing this? I was wrong, but I don't think I was a bad person. Misguided? Yes. Deadly wrong? Yes. Bad and evil? No. Neither was Ray.
He was doing what we all are trying to do. Make the best decision we can at the time.