Some christmas spirit, WT style!

by bohm 86 Replies latest jw friends

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  Meeting Junkie No More

  Debator - with all due respect, when you toss around the word 'Christian', you are probably imagining some early 1st century version of the current jehovah's witness, as depicted in the Watchtower and Awake magazines...most of us were guilty of such narrowmindedness at one time so we sympathize with where you draw your info from...

  Christianity was not so homogenenous as you believe but was rather made up of a myriad of different factions, each with its own 'interpretation' of Jesus' impact on history - so your dogmatic assertions about what the first Christians did or did not do carry no weight. Might I suggest some perusing of secular sources to get a little more insight into exactly what it was that the first(?), early Christians did or did not do? Which first Christians are you referring to? - there were many - even just try out Wikipedia - that will get you started.
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  debator

  Wingcommander

  You need to research claims like this,

  The Feast of Dedication or Hanukkah, is a Jewish holiday. It is also known as the Festival of Lights.

  Hanukkah is celebrated during the Hebrew month of Kislev (November or December). It begins on day 25 of Kislev and lasts for 8 days.

  After regaining the Temple, it was cleansed by the Maccabees, cleared of all Greek idolatry, and readied for rededicated. The rededication of the Temple to God took place in the year 165 BC, on the 25th day of the Hebrew month called Kislev.

  It is a later addition to Jewish celebration but it is a purely Jewish celebration.
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  isaacaustin

  Reniaa said:

  Wingcommander

  You need to research claims like this,

  The Feast of Dedication or Hanukkah, is a Jewish holiday. It is also known as the Festival of Lights.

  Hanukkah is celebrated during the Hebrew month of Kislev (November or December). It begins on day 25 of Kislev and lasts for 8 days.

  After regaining the Temple, it was cleansed by the Maccabees, cleared of all Greek idolatry, and readied for rededicated. The rededication of the Temple to God took place in the year 165 BC, on the 25th day of the Hebrew month called Kislev.

  It is a later addition to Jewish celebration but it is a purely Jewish celebration.

  My reply: Go read Ezra and you will see God had no issue with a Jewish celebration called Purim, purely a Jewish celebration.
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  isaacaustin

  Reniaa, your claim that Col and Romans 14 refers only to Jewish festivals is contextually weighed against. However, even IF it were true...why has your pagan god known as the governing body taken away from JWs the freedom you claim Paul gave first century Christians?
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  Ding

  Debator and others who still follow the men in Brooklyn,

  1. In Luke 2, the angels appeared and celebrated the birth of Jesus. They are a better example than Pharaoh and Herod. Christians began setting aside December 25 to celebrate Jesus' birth in part as a way to counter the pagan celebrations that were occurring around the solstice.

  2. I really don't care whether JWs celebrate birthdays and Christmas or not. What annoys me is the condescending attitude the WT gives JWs as they consider themselves more pleasing to Jehovah than those who celebrate various days.

  Read Romans 14 regarding celebrating or not celebrating various days: "4 Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. 5 One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7 For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8 If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. 9 For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. 10 You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat."

  3. Look at verse 5 in the quote above. There is room for individual CHOICE regarding the celebration or non-celebration of various days. The fact that some pagans get drunk and have orgies at various parties is irrelevant. In 1 Cor. 11:20-21 we read that some of the Corinthian Christians were even getting drunk while celebrating the Lord's Supper. The drunkenness was wrong; the celebration itself was not.

  4. What about Thanksgiving? Please point out scriptures that tell us NOT to thank God for the blessings He has given us.

  5. Stop setting aside scripture by judging those who don't follow Watchtower regulations regarding what days people do or don't choose to recognize as sacred (Romans 14).
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  Meeting Junkie No More

  better example than Pharaoh and Herod.

  Amen, Ding!

  Same thing for the scripture in Romans 14 - the dubs never read any scripture in context!

  Excellent post.
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  isaacaustin

  Dubs claim ROmans is speaking only of the Jewish feast. However, the context weighs against that- Pauls comments are very general, directed to the cong at large (which would contain gentiles who celebrated what Jews would consider pagan festivals) and he does not name what celebrations he is speaking of. However, even IF he only meant the Jewish feasts, the WT ignores this verse and would Df anyone who celebrated the Jewish feasts today. The org tries to twist this verse a bit and claim Paul was speaking only of the Jewish feasts and then the WT will add tht these feasts were no longer necessary so we shouldn't today- then run to the verse about the Old Covenant being obsolete. However, necessary or not is totally absent from the Romans account- it is simply about freedom and use of conscience. The unrelated text of the Old Covenant being obsolete is about it being obsolete as far as looking to the Law for salvation.
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  debator

  Hi Meeting Junkie

  I see a group of men dealing with the same problems we have now and that is a people that resist unity and like to cause division and create their own versions of the truths from God twisting them to their personal opinions.

  Jesus, Paul and other Christians saw and predicted this.

  Acts 20:28-30 (New International Version)

  28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. [a] Be shepherds of the church of God, [b] which he bought with his own blood. 29 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. 30 Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them.

  Romans 16:17
  I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them.

  2 Thessalonians 2:7

  7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work;

  2 Thessalonians 2:15

  15 So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings [a] we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

  There was no acceptance of factions but a young religion trying to gather two different groups together gentiles and christians in unity.

  Ephesians 4:13
  until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

  If it was okay for people to believe anything and do anything why the need for the letters after the Gospels? Why the need for Paul and the instructions for the congregations as a whole?

  History records what Christianity became sadly but the bible shows what we are meant to be.
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  isaacaustin

  Reniaa said:

  History records what Christianity became sadly but the bible shows what we are meant to be.

  My reply: And that would surely eliminate the pagn god of the Jehovahs Witnesses, aka governing body. They are anything but followers of 1st century Christianity.
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  isaacaustin

  Reniaa, you again show you do not know what you are speaking about:

  Ephesians 4:13
  until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

  My reply: Unity in the faith- in Christ....not uniformity of belief.

  Perhaps you little mind can comprehend? Maybe. Maybe not.