by AK - Jeff 94 Replies latest jw friends
I feel in constant contact with "the universe", something vital that is bigger than myself.
I just don't understand it as some "God" personality.
It just occurs as me being a part of a larger physical and emotional context.
But...no, no talks or railing against God, though I did go through what you describe.
Aguest - I chose the peace that comes from factual acceptance of reality, not that coming from acceptance of invisible beings with absolutely no basis in fact. Dispelling the false hopes is always more work than just conceding to the cultural lies we are fed. Pain is gain.
Acceptance of foolish notions and unreliable, unprovable, deities, is easy - no pain. But in the end, it leaves empty wasted, unproductive lives in it's wake.
Better to know a single fact - than to accept universes of unknown. But that is just my rational self. Not everyone is interested in being rational. Indeed, delusional seems at times to be winning the battle. Nonetheless, I pass.
Jeff
I quit doing it a long time ago when like you, I came to realize that it was no more productive than talking to the wind. When I took the God blinders off, it was very obvious that things work out the way they do from a combination of your efforts and time and chance.
Believers have an answer for everything because most just can't say the words "I don't know why or how."
If one person out of many survives a tragedy, it was because of Gods hand or he still has something for them to do.
If only one person died, then it was his time or God needed him up there.
I really don't mind that people believe in a diety, I just hate it when they try to rationalize everything by coming up with the reason(s) or excuses God allowed or did what he did.
Donny
Atheists talking to God makes about as much sense as Christians talking to the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
- Lime
I don't know what to call myself? I don't believe in any gods,,
but I know this god thing is a deep archetype of the human unconscious. God's are deep part of our past understanding of the world,, Science is very recent part of the human species. That being the case, What if we call the unconscious part of the human psyche "god" since it is infinitely greater than the conscious part which came on the seen just recently in our evolution.
Since all religious experience be they dreams visions or what have you come from the much bigger unconscious part of our psyche.
Even though I have no particular belief of the type of god I'm praying too,, i think it could be a source for finding strength or for relieving guilt or a host of other beneficial things,, Sometimes I even form a mantra with out even being aware of it happening. I don't think of this as a bad thing,, and may even be a psychological need. Since this god thing is so deeply embedded in our psyche,, i think behooves us make make our choices of god wisely and not be bound by any john come lately religious dogma, but that is a choice we all must make,, if I ever form a belief in God I think he should be one that could best help me balance the opposites in my psyche,, perhaps even a Quaternity instead of a Trinity.
Interesting thought frankiespeakin.
You may be onto something there worth some thoughtful consideration. I understand the 'psychological need' - but perhaps it arises from within, more than from cultural training? Hmmm.
I am about to head to bed for the night - but I will give that some thought - thank you for sharing that insight.
Jeff
Possibilianism caught my eye the other day.
Here's the nutshell:
"Our ignorance of the cosmos is too vast to commit to atheism, and yet we know too much to commit to a particular religion. A third position, agnosticism, is often an uninteresting stance in which a person simply questions whether his traditional religious story (say, a man with a beard on a cloud) is true or not true. But with Possibilianism I'm hoping to define a new position -- one that emphasizes the exploration of new, unconsidered possibilities. Possibilianism is comfortable holding multiple ideas in mind; it is not interested in committing to any particular story."
And a link:
I think what appealed to me was a quote that I heard attibuted to Albert Einstein, but now can't find so it was probably at least skewed if it ever came from him at all. Anyway, here's the gist:
"The sum total of human knowledge and wisdom to date can be compared to the better view of the stars one gets by climbing up onto the roof."
Given how much we still have to learn, 100% atheism is not a view I'm yet ready to accept.
om
atheism is not the acceptance of the non existence of a god.rather the absence of belief on a god of which there is no evidence of his existence. could I talk to a god I dont know exists? sure but theres not much probabilities that the god I dont think exists will neither listen nor respond.
Well I'm not exactly an 'Atheist', more like agnostic. But this is a great thread. AK-Jeff
I did go through a gigantic angry phase a couple of years ago. And I mean ANGRY. At the worst point, I actually did my own Lieutenant Dan. I found myself walking for more than 10 miles down a deserted road between 2:00 and 5:00 AM, drunk and screaming at the sky for hours until I lost my voice altogether. I couldn't fathom the injustice of being the insignificant pawns of a twisted megalomaniac supreme being, consigned to toil in a short and inconsequential life without purpose, destined only to suffer an ignominious end and fade into obscurity. I couldn't fathom the prospect of having the power to end suffering with the snap of a proverbial finger and yet sitting by idly watching the cruelty, injustice go on century after century. It seemed to me that if there is a god, he doesn't care. And that brought out the monster. That day I cried as I watched the sun come up. It was really, really rough.
This was followed by many bouts with depression as the implications of it slowly sunk in. Now I'm on to acceptance. Sort of. (Never really went through Bargaining, and if I was in Denial it was so brief I missed it). It still cycles sometimes, but the roller coaster ride is a little more tame than the first time.
Like you, I absolutely loved that scene in Forest Gump. I thought the writers hit in that one moment, the most honest and touching example of the inner struggle with the 'god' question I have ever seen.
Your question though was "Do you ever talk to God?" (present tense). The answer for me is "sort of, sometimes". I don't actively try to have conversations, and definitely not often. But every now and then I get the urge to "say something", even if it's not heard. I think I feel like if I say it, that it's out there. That somehow I did my part and got it off my chest. But maybe that's because I don't consider myself a complete atheist. I've said it before, but my thought on the matter is "I cannot prove that God exists, but neither can I prove He does not exist". So if He's out there somewhere, there are some things that occasionally I would like to say to him/her/it. I am under no delusion however that my 'prayer' (if you can call it that) is actually received. So most of the time I have nothing to say, because it seems rather pointless. But every now and then I just can't help myself.
But you are certainly not alone in feeling this way. It's nice to know that I'm not either. Thanks for sharing.
Acceptance of foolish notions and unreliable, unprovable, deities, is easy - no pain.
You're kidding, right, dear AK-Jeff (peace to you!)? Indeed, such "acceptance" has led to ENORMOUS pain among mankind. It is probably the greatest SOURCE of such pain. What of those burned at the stake? Or in a fire shower? Or beaten and imprisoned... for their beliefs? You don't even have to look that far, however: simply ask any recently defected JW whether there was no pain.
in the end, it leaves empty wasted, unproductive lives in it's wake.
ALL false belief systems have this result, to a greater or lesser extent, dear one. Including atheism. Ask any victim of extreme communism. But I must assure you that I do not fall in that category, either as to accepting foolish notions... or having an "empty, wasted, unproductive" life. Indeed, MY life is FAR from such... and is yet another reason why I share what I do: love... and gratitude.
By way of PROOF (since you seem to need that), however, I offer that I have spent close to 25 years helping people get... and/or keep... housing. Which, next to food/water, is man's second-most basic need, followed by clothing, then heat. My "clients" have included... and still include... economically poor people, including the disabled, seniors, families, widows, children, orphans, the formerly homeless, the currently homeless and students... as well as the not-so-poor, including university presidents, administrators, and professors, other educators and academics, executives, scientists, police officers, city council members, city officials, and more. I have more certifications than most people in my field and have sat on boards and commissions to help people maintain their housing rights, both as tenants AND as landlords... and have helped solve some pretty important housing conundrums, both on the local and national level. I currently work with attorneys nationwide (including a couple/few who are renowned in the housing industy), and actually give guidance/advice regarding low-income housing rules and regulations to some.
I have traded housing ideas and debated housing law with some of the most notable housing attorneys in the country... and have passed on errors in the interpretation and implementation of California Civil Code sections that related to housing to California Senate committee members. I have travelled out of state numerous times to attend housing-related conferences and conventions (all-expenses paid by my employers), recently to New Orleans, LA. I routinely get letters, cards, and email from people THANKING me... for putting them in housing, saving their housing, finding them housing, helping them pay for their housing, helping them understand and/or enforce their housing rights... or for helping THEM help someone else in this way. It is what I "do"... and I get paid VERY well to do it, so well that my husband and I can even take trips out of the country from time to time.
I own my own home, my car (a Lexus), is paid for. I have a WONDERFUL husband and two fabulous children, both of whom are self-employed and self-sufficient. My son has been honored by the California State Assembly twice, and has recently been nominated for another prestigious award for his work with youth. My daughter is a model with her image in a prestigious mall in Los Angeles, and my husband, a certified paralegal, works for a very prestigious law firm in San Francisco, and is legal assistant to one of the most highly recognized estate planning attorneys in the country (whose clients are senators, California Superior Court judges, highly acclaimed celebrities, and government bureaucrats).
And... I have VERY good friends... who love me, and I them... even some here on this board (greetings to the Nicodemi!)... all of them as a result of my union with Christ.
Now, I did not share all of this to brag, dear AK-Jeff. When you break it all down, it is nothing. No big deal, really. I shared it, however, to show you that serving God and Christ does NOT mean living a reclusive, ascetic life. One only needs do that if one CHOOSES, just as if one CHOSE to be a eunuch. But it does NOT result in an empty, wasted, unproductive life; to the contrary, serving the TRUE God... through Christ... literally gives one's life PURPOSE... far beyond what this world alone has to offer. What purpose? Service. Because contary to all of the false teachings and doctrines that say the Most Holy One of Israel is a God who wishes/demands to BE served... the TRUTH is that He is a God... OF service. His Son PROVED that... by how HE served people... and so taught US how WE are to serve: willingly... and joyfully.
That is WHY my Lord came... and served... and taught us to serve: because THAT is what the Most Holy One of Israel will do when He becomes all things to all: serve. He TRIED to do that for Israel. And all He asked in return was they be a people WORTHY of His service... by serving one another. But they repeatedly failed to grasp this truth; to the contrary, they kept oppressing one another with "law." And so He sent His Son to SHOW them how to do it. And, again, they failed. Unfortunately. BUT.. because He IS a God of service... and MERCY... He will not keep account of their error. Because LOVE... does not keep account of the error!
That He is NOT the "exacting", hateful warmonger that the false stylus of the scribes and false teachings of the "Pharisees" have made Him OUT to be most who claim to follow Him don't KNOW this. But I know it... and I will tell that truth to anyone willing to listen. By my words... and my how I live MY life. Which is nothing more than Christ himself taught us to do. I will do it... even if I look foolish to those like you.
But I will ALWAYS wish YOU peace... and a full, purposeful, and productive life, as I have been given... because that is what I would want YOU to wish for me. Which is also what my Lord has taught me.
And so I bid you that peace, now... and to time indefinite.
YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,
SA
