TRINITY Challenge for JW's, Unitarians and Anyone Else

by UnDisfellowshipped 457 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped

    PSacramento,

    Thank you for your insightful post! :-)

    Tec:

    Thank you for your excellent point on John 1:1.

    Peacedog:

    Outstanding posts as always.

    Mkr:

    No Trinitarian on this website (that I have seen) has EVER tried to teach that one Person is three Persons. That is a ridiculous belief.

    Trinitarians teach that Three Persons share the Divine Nature of being God.

    Some Trinitarians also believe that the three DIFFERENT Persons share the same "Family Name" of YHWH/Jehovah.

    djeggnog:

    I will post a lot more on this thread after I get back from my mini-vacation.

  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped

    Podo and Think About It:

    What does the fact that some Trinitarian believers have acted wickedly have to do with whether the Bible teaches the Trinity?

    Also, djeggnog, what difference does it make if the first year it was officially taught was 325 CE?

    The teaching about the Great Crowd of Other Sheep was not taught until 1935 CE, and the teaching about 1914 CE was not taught until the late 1800's.

  • djeggnog
    djeggnog

    @Podobear:

    Do you think there is sufficient sound argument to show that The Father is Jehovah and that he remains the God and Father of Jesus?

    Without question Jehovah is the Father of Jesus Christ, for on Nisan 14, 33 AD, Jesus died. This means that Jesus was no longer alive; he was dead. But on Nisan 16, 33 AD, a miracle was performed by God in His using His holy spirit to beget Jesus as His spiritual son, so that by His giving life back to Jesus on this occasion, Jehovah became Jesus' Father in the same way that God became Adam's father when he begot Adam as His earthly son by giving him life. (Luke 3:38) The holy spirit is God's reproductive seed that caused Jesus to become God's spirit-begotten son and since Jehovah is responsible for begetting or regenerating the life in Jesus after his death, this is proof that Jesus is God's son (1 John 3:9)

    Just as the Bible speaks of Isaac as being Abraham's "only-begotten son," so that Abraham became Isaac's begetter, or father, likewise the Bible also speaks of Jesus as being Jehovah's "only-begotten Son, " because Jehovah became Jesus' Begetter, or Father. (Hebrews 11:17; 1 John 4:9) Jesus became the mediator that reconciled and made peace between two parties, between God on one hand and men on the other hand, proving that Jesus is not God, but a separate entity. (1 Timothy 2:5; Romans 5:10) Some 20 years after Jesus' resurrection, the apostle Paul refers to "God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ" and he calls Jesus Christ "Lord to the glory of God the Father" (Romans 1:7; 1 Corinthians 1:3; 2 Corinthians 1:2; Galatians 1:3; Ephesians 1:2; Philippians 1:2; 2:12), and so does the apostle John near the end of the first century AD, in 96 AD in referring to Jehovah as "my God" (Revelation 3:2), and in 98 AD in referring to Jesus as "the Son of the Father" (2 John 3).

    I hope you find this helpful.

    @yknot:

    Why not be at peace with your opinion and simply pray for the other person.. Do not go on judging or reviling... It only serves to bring out the worst in us all... It is a division (not the only one either), that is all it is and it will not be settled until Jesus returns. We as Xians are not to seek division but rather unity-- unity in believing Jesus is the Messiah, he completed earthly course and worthy of being King, for us to love God with all our heart, to love others as we love ourself and await his return as faithful servants bearing witness through our lives, words and deeds.

    If one is not serving God, of what profit would it be for that person to pray for someone else, since Jehovah, "the Hearer of Prayer" doesn't listen to the prayers of those who are not His servants and of those who are not seeking Him (Psalm 65:2; Hebrews 11:6)? The Bible makes clear that only those calling on the name of Jehovah will be saved, but God only hears the prayers of those that pray to Him in Jesus' name. (Joel 2:32; John 14:6; 15:16)

    It's true that all of God's prophets foretold that the Messiah, a Savior raised up by God, would rule a kingdom that would bring changes to the world (Daniel 2:44; 7:13, 14), and Jesus is that Messiah, that Savior and that King, but prayers from anyone having doubts and lacking faith will simply not receive a hearing from God, and their prayers are in vain no matter how much one feels he or she demonstrates neighbor love or claims to love God with his or her whole heart, soul, mind and strength, for if one is not doing the will of the Father, one's good deeds and words in living one's life in accord with one's own will, rather than God's, will be in vain. Absolutely no such persons will be recognized by Jesus as being his followers, and their prayers will never reach God's ears. (Matthew 7:21-23; Hebrews 3:12; James 1:6-8) The prayers of the wicked become a sin, while the prayers of the righteous God does hear. (Psalm 109:7; Proverbs 15:29)

    @UnDisfellowshipped:

    [W]hat difference does it make if the first year it was officially taught was 325 CE? The teaching about the Great Crowd of Other Sheep was not taught until 1935 CE, and the teaching about 1914 CE was not taught until the late 1800's.

    I don't see the nexus to your question here, considering that 1914 AD and 1935 AD were years when certain prophetic features from the Bible underwent fulfillment, but in 325 AD came a teaching that totally perverted what the Bible teaches about God and Christ. Hopefully, you'll have a different attitude about the Trinity and will have embraced Bible truth before the foretold great tribulation begins. (John 8:32)

    @djeggnog

  • djeggnog
    djeggnog

    @Podobear:

    I wanted to correct a typo in my last post:

    Just as the Bible speaks of Isaac as being Abraham's "only-begotten son," so that Abraham became Isaac's begetter, or father, likewise the Bible also speaks of Jesus as being Jehovah's "only-begotten Son, " because Jehovah became Jesus' Begetter, or Father. (Hebrews 11:17; 1 John 4:9) Jesus became the mediator that reconciled and made peace between two parties, between God on one hand and men on the other hand, proving that Jesus is not God, but a separate entity. (1 Timothy 2:5; Romans 5:10) Some 20 years after Jesus' resurrection, the apostle Paul refers to "God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ" and he calls Jesus Christ "Lord to the glory of God the Father" (Romans 1:7; 1 Corinthians 1:3; 2 Corinthians 1:2; Galatians 1:3; Ephesians 1:2; Philippians 1:2; 2:12), and so does the apostle John near the end of the first century AD, in 96 AD in referring to Jehovah as "my God" (Revelation 3:2), and in 98 AD in referring to Jesus as "the Son of the Father" (2 John 3).

    The correction I would make:

    Just as the Bible speaks of Isaac as being Abraham's "only-begotten son," so that Abraham became Isaac's begetter, or father, likewise the Bible also speaks of Jesus as being Jehovah's "only-begotten Son, " because Jehovah became Jesus' Begetter, or Father. (Hebrews 11:17; 1 John 4:9) Jesus became the mediator that reconciled and made peace between two parties, between God on one hand and men on the other hand, proving that Jesus is not God, but a separate entity. (1 Timothy 2:5; Romans 5:10) Some 20 years after Jesus' resurrection, the apostle Paul refers to "God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ" and he calls Jesus Christ "Lord to the glory of God the Father" (Romans 1:7; 1 Corinthians 1:3; 2 Corinthians 1:2; Galatians 1:3; Ephesians 1:2; Philippians 1:2; 2:12), and so does the apostle John near the end of the first century AD, in 96 AD, in which we note John quoting Jesus there as referring to Jehovah as "my God" (Revelation 3:2), and in 98 AD in referring to Jesus as "the Son of the Father" (2 John 3).

    @djeggnog

  • yknot
    yknot

    Slippery slope there DJeggnog……

    Number one the name Jehovah didn’t exist until the ‘j’ was invented a few hundred years ago.....

    Trinitarians occasionally do discern distinction in prayer to our Heavenly Father…… sometimes they don’t.

    Scriptures cited are left to individual interpretation and can be applied equally against your proposition as you see them to support it.

    Don't forget we as Witnesses don’t dispute divine nature, there is an issue however as not being co-equal regarding Father and Son.

  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped

    A gorilla father begets a gorilla son.

    An elephant father begets an elephant son.

    A peacock father begets a peacock son.

    A human father begets a human son.

    God the Father begets God the Son.

    In each and every case, the father who begets the son, begets a son of the SAME EXACT NATURE.

    A gorilla father does NOT beget a peacock son. A human father does NOT beget an elephant son. God the Father does NOT beget a lesser angel son.

    God The Father CREATES other types or species, but He can only BEGET the SAME NATURE AS HIMSELF.

  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped

    In John 1:1, when it says the Logos was "a god" in the BEGINNING with God, what kind of "god" was He?

    Remember, John says the Logos was "a god" BEFORE one thing ever came into existence (John 1:3).

    So, then, we can rule out that the Logos was "a god" in the sense of being a representative or spokesman of God, because there were NO other creatures to speak to.

    According to the Appendix of the New World Translation Reference Bible (as well as the Insight Book, Reasoning Book, and Trinity Brochure), the real meaning of Jesus being called "a god" in John 1:1, is that the Logos has THE SAME DIVINE NATURE AS GOD.

    So, according to the New World Translation, The Logos had the SAME DIVINE NATURE as God IN THE BEGINNING.

    So, I would love to see djeggnog try to explain that away, claiming the Logos was not a "REAL GOD" until after His resurrection.

    So what kind of "god" was He in the beginning? A FAKE GOD? A true God? A half-god? A mini-god?

    Or, did the Inspired John choose the WRONG words to descibe the Logos?

  • Kenneson
    Kenneson

    How can it be that the human word is not created, but we are expected to believe that the Divine Word is?

  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped

    Great point Kenneson!

    Along the same lines, Jehovah's Witnesses (and many others) believe that "Wisdom" in Proverbs chapter 8 is the Pre-Human Jesus.

    Jehovah's Witnesses teach that Proverbs 8:22-25 proves that "Wisdom" was created by God.

    But, how could Jehovah's own wisdom have been created?

    How could there ever be a time when Jehovah did not have His own wisdom?

    And, how could God "create" His own wisdom?

  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped

    For those who were asking what the Holy Spirit's Name is (and He does have a Name according to Matthew 28: "Go baptizing in the Name of ... the holy spirit"):

    THE HOLY SPIRIT'S NAME IS JEHOVAH (and this is in the New World Translation):

    2 Corinthians 3:3, 6, 8, 15-18 (NWT):

    For YOU are shown to be a letter of Christ written by us as ministers, inscribed not with ink but with spirit of a living God, not on stone tablets, but on fleshly tablets, on hearts. ... who has indeed adequately qualified us to be ministers of a new covenant, not of a written code, but of spirit; for the written code condemns to death, but the spirit makes alive. ... why should not the administering of the spirit be much more with glory? ... In fact, down till today whenever Moses is read, a veil lies upon their hearts. But when there is a turning to Jehovah, the veil is taken away. Now Jehovah is the Spirit; and where the spirit of Jehovah is, there is freedom. And all of us, while we with unveiled faces reflect like mirrors the glory of Jehovah, are transformed into the same image from glory to glory, exactly as done by Jehovah [the] Spirit.

    The context, as you can clearly see, is speaking about the Holy Spirit. Then the Apostle Paul says at the end "Jehovah is the Spirit", while at the same time, showing a distinction among the different Persons, by also saying "The Spirit of Jehovah."

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