The False Prophet Nathan?

by brotherdan 144 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • coffee_black

    If the wt claims they are a prophet AND says that Jehovah put the words in their mouth, there is NO other conclusion to come to, than they are claiming to be inspired.

    They are also claiming that they are THE ONLY CHANNEL of COMMUNICATION with God. Who are they communicating with? The definition below should be helpful... of course the wt can always change the definition to suit we have often seen.

    DICTIONARY communication Definition com·mu·ni·ca·tion [ k? my?ni káysh'n ]

    com·mu·ni·ca·tions Plural

    NOUN 1. exchange of information: the exchange of information between people, e.g. by means of speaking, writing, or using a common system of signs or behavior 2. message: a spoken or written message 3. act of communicating: the communicating of information 4. rapport: a sense of mutual understanding and sympathy 5. access: a means of access or communication, e.g. a connecting door


  • bennyk

    Okay, debator.

    If I understand you correctly, you are claiming that although the Watch Tower Society has stated in millions of copies:
    1) that "those of the Jeremiah class have been sent by Jehovah to speak in his name" (w79 9/1 pp.29-30),
    2) that he has "put his words in their mouths" (w59 1/15 pp. 40-41 pars. 13-14),
    3) that they are the ones whom God has "actually used as his prophet" (w59 1/15 pp. 40-41),
    4) that "[a]ll the preaching and all the Bible educational work that they have done till now in 175 countries" has been done "by God's spirit" (w59 1/15 pp. 40-41), and
    5) that He is "behind all of it" (w64 6/15 p. 365 par. 22)--
    nevertheless, they are not to be viewed as false prophets despite the fact that nothing they have ever prophesied in His name has come true.

    Perhaps it's even all right with you if they blame him for their false prophecies and erroneous doctrines: "Stirring up increasing interest in them, Jehovah caused to be preached from 1918 onward the startling public message 'Millions Now Living Will Never Die,' and in 1923 he provided the interpretation of 'the parable of the sheep and the goats' " (Watchtower, Nov. 15, 1955, p. 698 § 36)

  • DaCheech

    coffe, I love original scans.

    caught them with their own words.

    got debator using typical JW "circular reasoning".

    debator: "time is the enemy of the false prophet"........... enjoy your time!

  • bennyk

    The Society is not content with merely claiming that Almighty God has "put his words in their mouths"-- They're even willing to put words in His mouth:

    "Jehovah's prophetic word through Jesus Christ is: 'This generation [of 1914] will by no means pass away until all things occur.' (Luke 21:32) And Jehovah, who is the source of inspired an unfailing prophecy, will bring about the fulfillment."
    --The Watchtower, May 15, 1984, pgs. 6-7 (Brackets in original).

  • Billy the Ex-Bethelite
    Billy the Ex-Bethelite

    "Hi billy
    Do not put words in my mouth."

    Hi debator,

    I'm sorry if you thought I was putting words in your mouth. When I said, "So it's reasonable to conclude that what is read in the Watchtower and heard at the District Convention is not from Jehovah", I was stating the conclusion that I reached years ago.

    It's reasonable to conclude that you are of the opinion that what is read in the Watchtower and heard at the District Convention IS from Jehovah.

  • coffee_black

    debator said: I do not see witnesses as false prophets because they simply do not fit the Bible creteria for being false prophets by claiming direct inspiration from God or claiming to do great signs or miracles or claim to be christ unlike others. So I think your need to condemn witnesses I feel is showing your cognitive dissonance on this topic.

    They fit the Bible criteria to a T, debator. I don't condemn them at all. Calling them what they are is not condemnation. It's just a statement of fact. It is up to God to judge them. They will have to give an account to Him one day. I feel very sorry for them, personally. I walked in the same shoes for many years. I am gratefull to be free.

    For you to say that we are showing cognitive dissonance on this topic is hilarious. You can look right at the evidence and deny its existance. Priceless!


  • coffee_black

    debator, this is the scripture that you think doesn't apply to jws?

    'But the prophet who speaks a word presumptuously in My name which I have not commanded him to speak, or which he speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.' You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD?"If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet hasspoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.Deuteronomy 18:20-22

    1 the wt claims to be a prophet

    2 They claim that Jehovah puts words in their mouths

    3 They are named Jehovah's in whose name do they speak? In whose name do they witness?

    Did Jehovah command them to speak about 1914... 1975 etc? Obviously not, since nothing they have prophecied has come to pass. They presumptuously spoke anyway, didn't they? It's a serious matter... carrying a death penalty...


  • bennyk

    debator writes in post 283:

    "I reiterate we have the Bible example of a PROPHET Nathan making a mistaken prediction in his own words and not getting condemned for it only corrected by God this shows that God knows the difference."

    My response: Very good; Jehovah himself corrected the prophet that very night. ( "And it came about on that night that the word of Jehovah came to Nathan..." [2 Samuel 7:4]) Therefore, this is entirely unlike the history of the Society's proclamations. The prophet Nathan did not preach numerous incorrect statements repeatedly, over and over for decades on end, demanding that others accede to his beliefs and condemning those who could not. But that is what the Society's record shows that they have done.

  • Cold Steel
    Cold Steel

    Debator says: What modern Dictionaries say is not the issue. The point here is the bible meaning of "inspiration" any Jew or Christian knows the Bible books/letters are special cases of this and why no other books/letters written at those times are consider inspired. This specific ability stopped with the apostles. If you start blurring it, why would we even use the Bible? You are deconstructing the Bible by denying that inspiration can specifically happen.

    Heaven forbid! I think God's word is always welcome, or should be. If we find an ancient text that the early Christians regarded as scripture, I would accept it as part of the canon and binding upon the church. In other words, I've never expected the limitations of the 66 books of the Bible to be a Providential restriction. Two books in the Bible I would rid the Canon of are Ecclesiastes and the Songs of Solomon. Ecclesiastes was not written by a prophet, nor do I believe the author to be either Solomon or David. Thus, it is not inspired of God, and yet it somehow contains your primary scripture to "prove" that man doesn't continue on after death! Yet it's clear that it's merely a philosophical book, not at all an eschatologicalwork. But like I said, if it goes, so does your doctrine of soul sleeping.

    Song of Solomon also was an inspired work, only not inspired of God. It has beauty and structure, but it does not show "Christ's love for the Church!" Yeesh! Nowhere does the Lord state that all scripture has been given and that no more of His word will be revealed. When He rules upon the Earth, please tell me that you don't think He's going to just sit around all day making daisy chains with the chldren!

    And that words can be inspired/straight from God and this is what Deut 18 is refering too, Jesus the messiah would have this specifically and hense why we have 4 gospels written about what he spoke to us.

    Don't quite get your point here. "The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken...." If you say that this is the Christ, you certainly won't get any complaints! If you believe it's the JW leadership, I do take issue in that Moses was a single man. The combined church leadership was not!

    As for Sabbath this is a side issue but Sabbaths ended with Jesus because he is fulfillment of the sabbath he is our Lord of the sabbath.

    I agree. In fact, I woship on Sunday. But where in the Bible did Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath, ever specifically change the sabbath from the seventh day to the first? I've never seen i

    I am not arguing that every religion believes they are the one, it simply goes with the territory but being God's people means knowing him and Jesus his son and doing God's will. It is not enough just to say you are. Christian religions use a 1000 scriptures to do with God's name but they still don't use it.

    And neither do you, my friend! I personally believe that God the Father (Elyon/Elohim) distanced himself from mankind when man sinned in the Garden of Eden. Elyon could no longer communicate with mankind and an intercessor was needed. So Elyon appointed his only begotten Son, Jehovah, to be the intercessor, and there are many scriptures to illustrate this. In Psalm 110:1-2, who was David's Lord when it said, "The LORD saith to my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand til I make thine enemies thy footstool." One God is saying to another God, Sit thou.... David only had one Lord, and it was Jehovah, which, by the way, was identified in Hebrew scripture by YHWH, the tetragrammaton. You believe the anglicized form of that tetragrammaton is Jehovah, but that's quite a stretch. In the Old Testament, Jehovah will come to judge the nations, but in the New Testament it says that the Father has committed all judgment to the Son, and that He (the Father) "judges no man" (see John 5:22) In the Old Testament Jehovah is the first and the last, while in the New it's Jesus who is the Alpha and Omega. It goes on and on. In short, you guys have misidentified Jehovah as the Father.

  • Ice cream
    Ice cream

    DEBATOR. Go and read CRISIS OF CONSCIENCE, then post on this forum. At least then you'll have an informed opinion. At the minute you're in denial. We've all been there.

    (Sorry to go off topic)

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