by StoneWall 347 Replies latest watchtower bible
what SUCH divergences are those?
Are you serious? I would hope we could assume this as fact, given the thousands of sects in Christianity, ALL of which have arisen over disagreements about what exactly Jesus would have to say on certain matters. They may be major or minor disagreements, but disagreements nonetheless. If we can't agree on that, I really have no interest in debating it with you.
Superpunk, No, I wasn't understanding what you were saying, sorry.
I am talking about Christians who claim to KNOW Jesus. The bible is unfortunately attached to that knowledge, but all Christians claim to have a more personal relationship with Jesus than simply what they read in a book - and THAT is what I'm discussing.
Gottcha.
I do get your question now, I think:
My point is, that if all these Christians really know and have a personal two-way relationship with the LORD-GOD, then they should be able to give harmonious answers to simple questions.
They cannot. This is not disputable, and I would hope we can agree on that at least.
And so we're left to wonder why.
Ok, first off, I am not sure what your simpel questions are, so I can't comment on them in particular.
Yes, Christians disagree on MANY doctrines, that is quite normal though because doctrines are man-made and as such, you will have soem of like-mind that agree and those that don't.
Our personal relationship with God has very little to do with doctrines because God works on OUR INDIVIDUAL level.
When I speak to God and Jesus, they speak to ME, on my level and our conversations will not be the same as when they speak to my wife for example, just leik when I speak to one of my daughters, I won't speak the same as when I speak to the other.
But that doesn't answer your question when two people that claim to have a relationship with God have two very different views in regards to something, liek the case of BTS and I and predestination, right?
But that doesn't answer your question when two people that claim to have a relationship with God have two very different views in regards to something, liek the case of BTS and I and predestination, right?
I guess, but I'm not comfortable with that specific example because I'm not familiar with it. To give us a frame of reference I'll use something you said in this thread, rather than take it off topic with what I (and you) consider doctrinal disagreements. I feel like both of us could give a shit about who is RIGHT about predestination - it doesn't affect either of us one bit, and there's nothing we can do about it either way.
Earlier the example was given of asking a random grouping of Christians how JESUS feels about homosexuals. Your response is that "most would agree that it is wrong". I completely agree.
However, "most" in no cases equals "all". I talk with a gay Catholic on another forum who is a member of a gay-friendly parish, who sees nothing wrong with homosexuality as it is an immutable state of being and he knows that Jesus doesn't have a problem with it either. He disagrees with MOST Christians. On such a simple and IMPORTANT question, there should be harmony among people who claim to know Christ intimately. There isn't in this case, and in many others - I trust we can agree on that and not get hung up on minutiae or specifics of THIS particular example, which will just muddy the water. I only gave the example so that you would know where I was coming from, not so it could be overanalyzed and brushed aside.
The discord amongst believers about such simple questions can't be justified or transformed into virtue. It's a flaw in the faith, and someone must be lying when they claim to know Jesus.
Earlier the example was given of asking a random grouping of Christians how JESUS feels about homosexuals. Your response is that "most would agree that it is wrong". I completely agree.
However, "most" in no cases equals "all". I talk with a gay Catholic on another forum who is a member of a gay-friendly parish, who sees nothing wrong with homosexuality as it is an immutable state of being and he knows that Jesus doesn't have a problem with it either. He disagrees with MOST Christians. On such a simple and IMPORTANT question, there should be harmony among people who claim to know Christ intimately. There isn't in this case, and in many others - I trust we can agree on that and not get hung up on minutiae or specifics of THIS particular example, which will just muddy the water. I only gave the example so that you would know where I was coming from, not so it could be overanalyzed and brushed aside.
I understand, and I agree with your friend, I don't think that Jesus has a problem with it, but I don't KNOW if he does or doesn't.
I truly never asked.
Christians tend to view it as a sin ie: wrong, because that is what it is viewed like in the OT laws written by the scribes, itis NOT one of the 10 commandments and again, Jesus is silent on the matter in regards to what he said and was written. Paul mentions it, but, as were are discussing on another thread, there is a history there and it was simply his opinion.
I think the problem is when opinion becomes doctrine and then doctrine must be defended, though I have no idea why, but that is another thread.
Should their be harmony between all christians in regards to this question, the question of wither homosexuality is a sin?
I don't know, but I think that there should be a consensus not to JUDGE anyone that is and that it shoudl be their personal business between them and God.
The discord amongst believers about such simple questions can't be justified or transformed into virtue. It's a flaw in the faith, and someone must be lying when they claim to know Jesus.
It is not a simple question though, is it?
Some people are born Gay, some choose to be homosexual or bisexual ( like the cultures that condone it -spartans for one), the debate of it being natural or it being genetic is stil going too, so it is hardly simple.
But I agree that when two people that claim to know Jesus say the opposite thing, that looks like someone is not "in the know", of course KNOWING doesn't equal SPEAKING for, we have to remember that.
I think that, like Paul, even those that get touched by Jesus on a personal level, still have certain preconceived notions that are very hard to get rid of.
I truly never asked.
What are you waiting on? If you get an answer, let us know. I've got LOTS of questions for him.
Should their be harmony between all christians in regards to this question, the question of wither homosexuality (or whatever) is a sin?
If they know and have direct communication and a personal relationship with Jesus, I would say that there should be. If they disagree as to Jesus' feelings on the matter, while at the same time both claiming to possess such a personal relationship, we may correctly assume that someone is lying about something.
What are you waiting on? If you get an answer, let us know. I've got LOTS of questions for him.
You know, Jesus doesn't always answer in a way that is "cut n dry", sometimes I am compelled to read the NT and, somehow the answer is there.
I was compelled to bring up 1Corinthians 13 and Paul's writings about Love, especiallay the part:
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
I was also compelled to remember not to judge others and that homosexuality was not part of the 10 commandments, but the real question is why people that profess to have Jesus NOT agree on something like homosexuality.
So I asked Jesus and after reminding me of free will and that one can't force love and accepteance on ANYONE, I was reminded that, even those most touched by Jesus are still imprefect and can still be wrong about things.
So I asked, what guidline can I use?
And I was reminded that God is Love, Jesus is love and by the works of love shall all that are God's be known.
PSac -- Before one goes to Hell, do you think he'll be given an opportunity to tell "his side of the story" to God?
PSac -- Before one goes to Hell, do you think he'll be given an opportunity to tell "his side of the story" to God?
The second question I ever asked.
You won't have to, God already knows.
If you all allegedly know the same person, then why is there such a divergence of opinion about what that person is like, what he likes, what he dislikes, approves and disapproves of? You are all drawing your information from the same book, all claiming the guidance of Holy Spirit and/or Jesus himself, yet there is no agreement. The impartial observer suspects some (if not all) of you are lying about knowing this Jesus.
Ah.
As PSac said earlier... Gotcha.
First, I don't like speaking for other Christians because I don't have the ability or right to judge them... but some who think they know Christ probably do not. Not because they are lying, but because they are mistaken - due to the reasons I stated earlier about us being lost. I concede that a few could be lying for whatever reason (fraud and money being the most obvious). Those ones would then be misleading others, who might otherwise be trying in sincerity to know Christ.
That accounts for some of the discrepancy.
Second part is that Jesus was silent on many topics currently debated. He expected us to act in love, and that can mean different things. I personally think that this means rules get thrown out the window, and each situation should be considered on its own merit- keeping love and mercy foremost in mind. If you have love and mercy within you, then you will act in accordance to it. No rule can stand against that or even replace that. I mentioned this earlier in the thread.
Third - some people have stronger faith than others. A person of stronger faith can accept things that a person of weaker faith cannot. This differences is a part of our faith, and can look like a divergence, but really is not. It is tolerance and acceptance. (Paul also speaks about strong/weak faith in relation to following or feeling free from the OT laws)
Finally, I would like to ask you a question:
In a close and personal relationship that you have had with another person, did/do you believe that you know that person inside and out, 100%? And do you believe that every person who shared a close relationship with that same person would see things in the exact, 100% way as you do?
(sorry, that was two questions)
Tammy
