Why do all intelligent Christians disobey Jesus?

by StoneWall 347 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • tec

    Hi Stonewall, and thank you. I don't think we all have to agree on any given topic in order to be acting in love for one another - especially since I believe that love is the greatest command, according to Jesus and repeated by Paul ('and the greatest of these is love' - note that Paul puts love above faith, even), as well as being repeated throughout the gospels.

    And this thread has been grounds for great discussion, by all.


    In Luke - I don't think that Jesus is referring to material wealth here. The parable he uses just before verse 33 is about making plans to defeat one's enemy. I don't know how that can be reconciled with "in the same way, any of you who does not give up everything he has cannot be my disciple", if we're speaking about material wealth.

    And if I was really to compare that with what Paul says in Phillipians (reading the entire chapter to put it into context), then I would say that Jesus is talking about giving up everything that meant something, before Him. (The law, the status, the value of circumcision in the flesh) Because that is what Paul appears to be talking about.

    I would never have connected the two passages on my own, mind you. I understand what Paul was saying. I'm not sure I understand yet what Jesus said - except that context does not seem to show what the video implies. And any scripture, taken out of context, can be interpreted in any way that the reader wants to play it.

    I think the same goes for any writing. So while some (not all) people might pick and choose according to what is best for them, when a man taught the crowds using parables designed to make people think, then we are bound to get different interpretations.

    On a side note:

    How many christians do you know that gave up "all belongings, all things" to follow the christ?

    I don't personally know anyone who has given up all their belongings to follow Christ. But there is a denomination of Christianity - insultingly called garbage eaters (because they are voluntarily homeless and eat out of garbages), who have taken some of these verses literally, and have given up family and possessions to wander the streets and preach the gospel.

    I also wanted to add to something XJW4EVR said above, that if the early Christians had no possessions, then they could not have sent a monetary gift to Paul to begin with.

    Another case in point, how many christians do you know that say their complete trust and faith is in the Lord and yet own a gun? If their complete trust is in the Lord why have the gun? Can he not protect them from burglars,invaders etc.? The rational part of their brain kicks in and tells them just in case the Lord don't show up, I better have a back-up plan.

    Jesus never promised freedom from crime or persecution during this lifetime. Jesus taught that our spiritual life is more important than our earthly life. Treasure in heaven, right? He wasn't speaking about material treasure, since we would have no need of it there, but of spiritual treasure. So unless someone actually does believe what you said, then its not a case of a backup plan if God doesn't show up.


  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog


    But a rejection of Calvanism is not a rejection of the bible.

    I 'never said it was. But saying "Everyone has the potential to become a child of God in the spiritual sense as well as literal" is a rejection of it.

    DD - If I read the first two chapters of Ephesians, then I can understand that some were predestined - chosen before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless- but then later, those who hear and believe in the gospel are also included in Christ. (Ephesians 1: 13-14) Meaning anyone can come to Christ.

    The point is that "those who hear and believe in the gospel" are also included in Christ because they are the ones called in the first place.

    Did you notice what Jesus said to the pharisees?

    Joh 8:43"Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you can not hear My word.

    And I do believe Jesus is the Word of God. The bible can be and has been misunderstood and mistranslated by men.

    So is the bible. Are you telling me that, just because the bible is misunderstood it's not the Word of God? Jesus is still misunderstood, but you don't claim to discount Him as the Word.

  • PSacramento

    Too many posts to reply too...

    Yes, I reject Calvins view of predestination, but of course I do NOT reject the bible.

    How do I reconcile that then?

    Simple, God has predestined some of his children to have certain gifts, this we saw all that time, the gift of music, writing, athletic ability and in spiritual matters this is no different, some are destined to be teachers, prophets, even Saints in the most strict sense of the word.

    Of course it is still their choice to "put on this mantle" or else God would be a cruel task master indeed.

    This is not limiting God, this is respect for God and God's respect for US.

    The Pharasiees made the CHOICE to reject and NOT hear, it wasn't MADE for them, wht kind of God would predestin some of his creations to NEVER know him?

    DD, you bring up Ephesians, but if you take a LITERAL view of that Letter, you will see that from the very beginning that Paul, in its most natural and literal reading, is directing that letter to the SAINTS and goes on to write about "US", the saints and Him.

    Now, if we are to take the LITERAL meaning of this then it means that Paul is referring to HIM and the SAINTS:


    1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,

    To the saints who are in Ephesus and are faithful a in Christ Jesus:

    2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

    Spiritual Blessings in Christ

    3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 just as he chose us in Christ b before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless before him in love. 5 He destined us for adoption as his children through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace that he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace 8 that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and insight 9 he has made known to us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure that he set forth in Christ, 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to gather up all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. 11 In Christ we have also obtained an inheritance, c having been destined according to the purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to his counsel and will, 12 so that we, who were the first to set our hope on Christ, might live for the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you had heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and had believed in him, were marked with the seal of the promised Holy Spirit; 14 this d is the pledge of our inheritance toward redemption as God’s own people, to the praise of his glory.

    So, I ask you, WHO are the saints? and are only THEY predestined, if all that believe are saints then all are redestined, if only special ones are saints then only they are predestined.

    Is that what you believe the NT teaches?

  • leavingwt
    it is still their choice

    This is the total opposite of what DD believes (as I understand it). As a depraved, sinful human, it is impossible for anyone to choose Christ.

  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog


    The Pharasiees made the CHOICE to reject and NOT hear, it wasn't MADE for them, wht kind of God would predestin some of his creations to NEVER know him?

    The God that "endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction". The God that LOVED Jacob and HATED Esau. The God that "has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires".

    So, I ask you, WHO are the saints?

    The saints are all the believers of all time. They are the choosen/elect.

    Is that what you believe the NT teaches?

    Yes. Both the New and Old Testament.

  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog


    PSac isn't really dead in his trespasses and sins... He's just a little sick with a cold

  • BurnTheShips
    Why do all intelligent Christians disobey Jesus?

    Because all Christians are sinners in need of God's mercy.


  • not a captive
    not a captive


    Both Jesus and the Bible can be misunderstood in terms of the doctrines that hang-in-the-NT-and-can't-be-proven: transsubstantiation, predestination, election, original sin, trinity, Holy Orders, the qualities of hell(fire)/gehenna--even what salvation/being a child of God materially and/or spiritually provides a believer(what is IN his Fathers house?).

    Some say there is the "fine print" of doctrine implied in the words of Jesus and the disciples. Where are these ? The Bible. We have more broad teachings that come from bundled words that show us the mind of Christ. But even here the teachings embedded in stories he told --parables--can have as much ambiguity as the single words themselves--else the disciples wouldn't have asked him personally --"What does that mean?" So why do we think church leaders will have the precise answers?

    So--if doctrinal teachings hang on words of long ago that are inherently debatable just as much now as when they were first uttered AND we have to depend on translations which in turn depend on many other issues of scholarship. (Heck, we still don't know how God's name was pronounced.)---how is it we let ourselves refer to doctrines that are hatched from the minds of others? And was there a moment in the years since the apostles died until now that the church has not been dominated by politics and division??!!!!!

    Let's face it--If words in print are the only thing we have to base our faith on is a letter from God that our wardens(councils and Governing bodies)has proofread and edited before he reads it to us, then, to paraphrase Paul: we are to be pitied more than all men.

    Does this mean we should not attempt to use the Bible?

    Or does it mean that holy spirit has a role even more dynamic within the believer than a Pope, a Calvin or a Fred Franz can tolerate?


    26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

    Hebrews 10:26-27 (New International Version)

  • PSacramento
    This is the total opposite of what DD believes (as I understand it). As a depraved, sinful human, it is impossible for anyone to choose Christ

    And he MAY be right and the JW's MAY be right too.

    The God that "endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction". The God that LOVED Jacob and HATED Esau. The God that "has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires".

    The same God of the mount of foreskins and dead babie, yep, that one, you can keep that one, I don't like him very much.

    The saints are all the believers of all time. They are the choosen/elect.

    I agree, so ALL believers are predestined, is that what you are saying?

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