Why do all intelligent Christians disobey Jesus?

by StoneWall 347 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Deputy Dog

  tec

  DD - You know what's funny about your last comment? It makes it seem as if we're all debating the importance of being humble, as well as trying to be fair and just...

  When are you going to answer my question? Because it is a problem YOU have to deal with, you claim responsibility or choice, I don't.

  Our hearts are all in the right place, I think. We're just approaching it from two opposite angles. Because I would also ask you, 'what makes you so special that God chose you and not someone else?'

  I have asked myself that question many many times. As a sinner the only thing I bring to God is my sin. You would have to ask God that question. I believe it's His choice to make. It gives Him the glory. He is the Judge (the Potter) after all.

  The bible says "...where sin increased, grace abounded all the more"
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  PSacramento

  This is the second time you've said something like that. What are talking about? I believe ALL Christians are "God's elect" called by God, not just some.

  You misunderstand, probably my fault for not making it clear.

  I think that soem christians as "preordained" by God for special tasks, with special gifts, the gift of prophecy, of healing of teachings and so forth.

  Like some are born with the gift of music or Math.

  What a burdensome way to look at the Christian life.

  Yes, free will can be VIEWED as burdensome, if we are away from God's grace.
• 

  not a captive

  PSac,

  You said something that is pretty relevant, at least in my thinking. Yesterday you mentioned that even when a Christian might 'know Jesus is real', doesn't prevent keep them from having preconceived notions.

  That seems confusing even to believers themselves. Which is why so much damage is done in the name of serving God. You get "saved" and start standing on Friday night street corners to damn the sinners coming out of the bars.We need to proceed with due humility of the wisdom of the ignorant.

  Most, not all, realize that the OT accounts reflect what happened in the history of the Jews, not exactly what God wanted. Example: David was second in a line of kings--a kind of government that was essentially a rejection of God's direct authority and protection. Still, God dealt with this less-than-perfect situation. And in his mercy he deals with us in our delusional states--and usually he absorbes the blame for our incompetence, imo.

  It looks like Paul recognized the problem of separating personal prejudice and holy spirit in many of his letters but the clearest example I know of is 1 Cor. 7. There he weighs in on SEX. God help him! he goes back and forth reasoning this way and that, saying one thing and referencing the scriptures and then another way and says that it is his own opinion. In fact he concludes the chapter saying "She would be happier, in my opinion, if she stayed as she is--and I too have the Spirit of God, I think."

  And this is the same thought in all translations I have.

  If our own opinions are powerful and can masquerade as truth so often, how dare we lay down the law for another? We can do as Paul does and give reasons from the scriptures and recognize there are limits to personal freedom--even as he points out in 1 Cor. 6--"You are associating with a brother who's having sex with his step-mom??!!!" ---NO WAY!

  So, if we are wise Christians we should get used to being accused of vacilating. There is the holy spirit and then there is ourselves-.Sometimes they concur, even as non-christians so often do what is right without making special claims of holy spirit- Burt does it seem proper to force this on anyone , including a believer until God brings them along to it? Because how wise are we to know how God is dealing with another?

  Maeve
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  leavingwt

  I think that soem christians as "preordained" by God for special tasks, with special gifts, the gift of prophecy, of healing of teachings and so forth.

  Like some are born with the gift of music or Math.

  With respect, this is not what DD is discussing. As he has stated earlier, his belief is that the Bible is clear in that only those chosen by God can accept Christ. (Not Chosen = Not Christian)

  I'm not trying to speak for him and hopefully he'll respond. Interesting discussion.
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  PSacramento

  With respect, this is not what DD is discussing. As he has stated earlier, his belief is that the Bible is clear in that only those chosen by God can accept Christ. (Not Chosen = Not Christian)

  I'm not trying to speak for him and hopefully he'll respond. Interesting discussion.

  Yes, I know THAT is what DD is saying, what I am saying is that the greek term for elected ones, dosn't JUST mean that, as I showed eariler.
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  PSacramento

  You said something that is pretty relevant, at least in my thinking. Yesterday you mentioned that even when a Christian might 'know Jesus is real', doesn't prevent keep them from having preconceived notions.

  We are still only human and flawed and sinful.

  That seems confusing even to believers themselves. Which is why so much damage is done in the name of serving God. You get "saved" and start standing on Friday night street corners to damn the sinners coming out of the bars.We need to proceed with due humility of the wisdom of the ignorant.

  Most, not all, realize that the OT accounts reflect what happened in the history of the Jews, not exactly what God wanted. Example: David was second in a line of kings--a kind of government that was essentially a rejection of God's direct authority and protection. Still, God dealt with this less-than-perfect situation. And in his mercy he deals with us in our delusional states--and usually he absorbes the blame for our incompetence, imo.

  Quite correct, God doesn't force his Love OR his authority on us, the choice is always ours and the blame is always ours too.

  It looks like Paul recognized the problem of separating personal prejudice and holy spirit in many of his letters but the clearest example I know of is 1 Cor. 7. There he weighs in on SEX. God help him! he goes back and forth reasoning this way and that, saying one thing and referencing the scriptures and then another way and says that it is his own opinion. In fact he concludes the chapter saying "She would be happier, in my opinion, if she stayed as she is--and I too have the Spirit of God, I think."

  I agree.

  And this is the same thought in all translations I have.

  ALL should have.

  If our own opinions are powerful and can masquerade as truth so often, how dare we lay down the law for another? We can do as Paul does and give reasons from the scriptures and recognize there are limits to personal freedom--even as he points out in 1 Cor. 6--"You are associating with a brother who's having sex with his step-mom??!!!" ---NO WAY!

  So, if we are wise Christians we should get used to being accused of vacilating. There is the holy spirit and then there is ourselves-.Sometimes they concur, even as non-christians so often do what is right without making special claims of holy spirit- Burt does it seem proper to force this on anyone , including a believer until God brings them along to it? Because how wise are we to know how God is dealing with another?

  Well said, whiel God is all knowing and the same, always, WE are NOT.
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  superpunk

  Maybe we aren't meshing here because we have different ideas on what knowing Jesus personally means?

  It means what it's always meant.

  i.e. I know my wife personally. We talk, we know alot about each other, I can reach her anytime I want to, etc.

  I do not know President Obama personally. While I know alot about him and who he is, we don't talk, we've never met, he doesn't know who I am, etc.

  notacaptive;

  Again you're making the mistake of thinking I'm discussing doctrinal differences among Christians. I'm not, as I've specified numerous times.

  It becomes obvious upon such an examination that Christians do not "know" or have a "personal relationship with" Jesus in the traditional and obvious sense. If they did, we wouldn't have the discord about even simple topics that we see among the faithful.
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  poppers

  I haven't read through this whole thread so I don't know if this issue has been addressed yet, but I have a question about what a "personal relationship with Jesus" entails. Do you mean to say that you actually hear the voice of Jesus, an audible distinct voice? Or is it a sense of his presence and a feeling that you are directed to read something specific from the Bible that leads you to an answer? The mind is a powerful instrument, so how can you be sure that what you are experiencing isn't something that you yourself aren't creating?
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  tec

  When are you going to answer my question? Because it is a problem YOU have to deal with, you claim responsibility or choice, I don't.

  DD- I don't know the answer to your question, any more than you know the answer to the one I asked you. Because I want to hear and know Jesus, so I do? Because I was born into an area that allows me to find knowledge of Him? Perhaps God only does for us what we are willing to accept and to hear and to place our faith in.

  "Oh Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing."

  Why would Jesus say that if they didn't have a choice in the matter in the first place?

  I hear what you're saying, DD. I truly do. We cannot earn the grace of God, or it would not be grace. But the people within it also work so hard to bring people to Christ. 'Come all you who are weary and burdened...' 'God was reconciling the world to him through Christ...'

  I do think that there are some chosen (predestined) by God to share the gospel. But I think it is the choice of those who hear, whether or not they believe. Only God can know why they don't or can't believe. But if they do believe, then theyy are included in Christ - and all are one in Christ.

  Ephesians: In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit."

  He does not say that these ones who heard afterward were predestined.

  So now I'll repeat a question I asked earlier:

  How do you reconcile predestination (for all) with free will?

  Tammy
• 

  Deputy Dog

  Leaving

  With respect, this is not what DD is discussing.

  It wasn't what Peter was disscussing either. Then again, what ever works in a pinch.

  I'm still waiting to here what is so special about PSac that he chose God and most others don't. I'm guessing deep down he's a little smarter than most.

  Could he be one of those "elect"/ chosen (forced to take on the mantle)?