Why do all intelligent Christians disobey Jesus?

by StoneWall 347 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  exjdub

  tec

  PSacramento

  not a captive

  Thank you for your comments and your efforts to help me see the error of my ways. You are decent people who try to share what you believe with each other and been kind enough to share it with me. To me truth is not negotiable; it has to be consistent.

  It makes no real difference to me what you believe, or what you base it on. If it helps you enjoy your lives I wish you well. I think it best that I leave you debate amongst yourselves for a while and come to the conclusions that you want to. I would not want to be the cause of you losing something that you value.

  I am making the same journey through life as you are but am walking a different path

  Very well said Gladiator. I also want to thank tec, PSacramento, and not a captive for the reasonable debate. Proof that a respectful debate is possible and that we can all regard one another with respect, while at the same time disagreeing. I will never understand the whole grace thing, but I am glad that all 3 of you are there for each other. It's what it is all about. Peace my friends!

  exjdub
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  superpunk

  Superpunk - did you read what I said earlier, about starting with scripture to lead us to Christ, and keeping it as a guide and reminder, but then growing to put our faith directly into the Spirit of Christ and God?

  I didn't read the whole thread, it's a long one, so no. Just making observations.

  I also find it odd that scripture seems to "lead" Christians to entirely different versions of Christ, depending upon how liberally or conservatively predisposed they are in the first place, so that there is a vast deal of disagreement among Christians as to what Christ is like, what he approves of, what he disapproves of, etc - and they don't appear to be the least bit ashamed of this discord in the ranks.

  If you knew me, and then came into contact with three other people who claim to know me, and none of them can agree on even my simplest characteristics and likes and dislikes, what would be your conclusion? That they are either being willfully deceptive, or just making things up as they go along, no doubt.

  That's the perception of the impartial and rational observer when it comes to trying to get a concrete concept of Jesus nailed down by talking to Christians about it. Either none of them ACTUALLY know Christ, or one of them does and the rest are just making stuff up. Which of course begs the question - why?
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  PSacramento

  Superpunk,

  Actually, IF everyone was in agreement with ALL that Jesus AND his aspotles taught and wrote in the bible, then I would be worried.

  All agree on the messages, the core, of Christian belief:

  Jesus is the Son Of God, he died and was ressurected and rules Heaven and Earth, We are under the gift of Grace ( though there are some interpretations of it, all agree that there is Grace from God, through Jesus), we are to love each other, to forgive, to repent and that Love is the ket teaching of Jesus.

  We may disagree on man-mdae doctrines and interpretations, but that's ok.

  Jesus had 4 Biographies and all 4 were different, with the 4th being quite different, but this is nothing new or odd, most people if they had 4 different people doing their biographies woulr have many differences in them.

  We have letters written to specific people with specific problems, written by different men with different personalities that were all touched by Jesus in different ways, that's OK too.

  If it all was the same, THEN one should be worried !
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  tec

  Which of course begs the question - why?

  Because many of us are lost, relying on men who are also lost to lead us to salvation. Many of us are slaves to our own selfish desires, and then we twist scripture and abuse the gift of grace to justify living by those selfish desires.

  Because so few of us find the narrow path that Jesus spoke of.

  Because even those of us who are sincere are imperfect.

  We can only try our best, and put our faith in Jesus.

  Tammy
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  PSacramento

  exjdub,

  Thanks for the kind words and yes, it is nice to exchnage ideas and view points and disagree and be civil and loving about it, isn't it?

  No one is trying to convert anyone else, we are just regular people talking about what we believe.

  Its not about right or wrong, but about respect for each others viewpoints.
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  superpunk

  Psacramento

  All agree on the messages, the core, of Christian belief:

  We both know that's not true. Maybe for some of the things you said you can claim "most", but certainly not "all".

  If it all was the same, THEN one should be worried !

  And I apologize for being rude, but this is another characteristic of persons of faith - they take the flaws in their faith and magically turn them into virtues. As a simple example, get a decent cross-section of the Christian population from conservative to liberal and ask them how Christ feels about homosexuals, or abortion, or women's rights in the congregation. Certainly these cannot be brushed aside as unimportant topics, the answers given could have ENORMOUS impact on their intended audience (for example a tortured young homosexual who grows up in a fundamentalist household) - yet you will get from Christians (who apparently all INTIMATELY know the same person - Jesus) vastly different answers.

  From your answer, you would assume that all the Christians would leave that session arm in arm, beaming from ear to ear that none of them can agree on how Jesus feels about even the simplest of topics - because if they had actually managed to give a harmonious answer then there would be cause for concern.

  This logic is completely ass-backwards and counterintuitive to every ounce of critical thinking skills we are taught throughout our lives.
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  superpunk

  Excellent answer, tec.

  Because many of us are lost, relying on men who are also lost to lead us to salvation. Many of us are slaves to our own selfish desires, and then we twist scripture and abuse the gift of grace to justify living by those selfish desires.

  Because so few of us find the narrow path that Jesus spoke of.

  Because even those of us who are sincere are imperfect.

  However, that seems to be misdirection at best. You can all be as imperfect as you want, it bears absolutely no relevance to my question. If you all allegedly know the same person, then why is there such a divergence of opinion about what that person is like, what he likes, what he dislikes, approves and disapproves of? You are all drawing your information from the same book, all claiming the guidance of Holy Spirit and/or Jesus himself, yet there is no agreement.

  The impartial observer suspects some (if not all) of you are lying about knowing this Jesus. After all, since there is such divergence, you can't ALL be telling the truth, so some must be fibbing a bit. But he can't figure out why, save to protect fragile ideologies and groupthink.
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  PSacramento

  Superpunk,

  Ever heard of Bruce Lee?

  Know how many biographies he had? Lots.

  Know how many were the SAME? None.

  If my wife were to write my biography itwould be wuite different than my sister, my Mom, my best friend, etc.

  I see no flaws in my faith, but I am bias, so...

  As a simple example, get a decent cross-section of the Christian population from conservative to liberal and ask them how Christ feels about homosexuals, or abortion, or women's rights in the congregation.

  A vaild point, I think most would agree that homosexuality and abortion is wrong, they will differ as to "punishment" for sure.

  The women's right in a congregation I don't understant the question...

  From your answer, you would assume that all the Christians would leave that session arm in arm, beaming from ear to ear that none of them can agree on how Jesus feels about even the simplest of topics - because if they had actually managed to give a harmonious answer then there would be cause for concern.

  This logic is completely ass-backwards and counterintuitive to every ounce of critical thinking skills we are taught throughout our lives.

  Actually, my view is that NO SESSION would be needed, it would be up to the INDIVIDUAL christian to decide what is right for THEM.

  Since we are all judged as INDIVIDUALS, going along with the crowd is not the way to go.

  A shock to a JW, I know.

  My point about contridiction and conflict is that, IF the NT was 100% in agreement in all issues, that WOULD be cause for concern since the very nature of Christ's message was personal and that tends to equal diagreements, just like Paul had with Peter as an example.
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  PSacramento

  The impartial observer suspects some (if not all) of you are lying about knowing this Jesus. After all, since there is such divergence, you can't ALL be telling the truth, so some must be fibbing a bit. But he can't figure out why, save to protect fragile ideologies and groupthink.

  what SUCH divergences are those?
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  superpunk

  Psac - I didn't say anything about the inconsistencies and contradictions in the gospels. I am talking about Christians who claim to KNOW Jesus. The bible is unfortunately attached to that knowledge, but all Christians claim to have a more personal relationship with Jesus than simply what they read in a book - and THAT is what I'm discussing. Why these Christians, who have this intensely intimate relationship with the Christ cannot agree on even the simplest of his likes and dislikes, and why they are not the least bit ashamed that they cannot do so.

  Since we are all judged as INDIVIDUALS, going along with the crowd is not the way to go.

  You continuously miss the point and opt instead for red herrings. Instead of focusing on the discord among Jesus' alleged friends, you opt to focus on my fictitious gathering of Christians, and whether or not that is necessary. It's necessity is irrelevent to analyzing the discord among Christians when it comes to describing their LORD to everyone else. I couldn't care less what the New Testament is in conflict with. My point is, that if all these Christians really know and have a personal two-way relationship with the LORD-GOD, then they should be able to give harmonious answers to simple questions.

  They cannot. This is not disputable, and I would hope we can agree on that at least.

  And so we're left to wonder why.