Dearest pjschipper...

by AGuest 105 Replies latest jw friends



    Central Authority - Ray Franz; Now tyrnnizing over those who are allotted to you care..

    Your Kidding right?..

    Shelby has been kind enough to provide you a Thread..

    To explain your Babbling..

    Ray is not the Subject of this Thread..

    You still have time,to Say something Intelligent..


  • Farkel

    :Shelby, hit with all you got!

    That would be cruel if she did since you haven't even come close to answering one simple question that she asked you in two separate threads.

    A simple, "I can't answer that" or "I simply don't know" would do.

    Shelby will be gentle with you whatever you do. She is a genuine Christian. If I didn't love her so much as a friend, she would make me sick she's so genuine and nice.


  • AGuest

    The greatest of love and peace to you! There is a LOT to respond to here... from you as well as a couple/few others, and particularly the WT excerpts that you've pasted. Since there is so much, I must ask your patience - I may have to do this is more than one post (maybe not; we'll see).

    I also want to apologize if it seems that “we” are ganging up on you: that truly was NOT my intention and, having been subjected to similar discussions, I can totally empathize with you. But, again, I don’t believe those who have responded and/or challenged you mean you ANY harm or disrespect – certainly, I do not – so, please forgive us, if you feel a need to be on the defense. As I stated, I feel you to be sincere… and so am I. So, if you will permit me and bear with me, I would like to respond.

    Please note that I am not necessarily responding in the “order” that comments were made here, as I am compelled by the Spirit to address things as HE sees fit. Also, I usually only post the scripture/verse and leave it to you to look them up; however, I am directed by the Spirit to actually quote some of the verses for you, which I will do from the NWT first, and perhaps another Bible version should that be more accurate. Okay, then…

    wtf.. who the hell talks like that ... always starting posts with "may you have peace" ...

    The Holy One of Israel, JAESHUA MISCHAJAH, who is the Son and Christ of the MOST Holy One of Israel, JAH [of Armies] (Psalm 68:4), speaks this way. It is how he speaks when he comes to me… and how he has directed me to speak to all to whom he sends me. I do not use this greeting because I read it in the Bible; indeed NONE of what I share “from the Bible” is because I read it there. It is because it is what he has given me; it is only after I obey that he shows me where it is “written. Luke 10:5; Matthew 10:12

    It has been a progressive spiritual leading by Jesus.

    Praise JAH! (And please forgive the formatting from this point - it just took too much , so I've tried to color-code)

    I"m sorry I did not answer you, I have been busy with other posts. And I am being subject to a lot of leading questions that I try to answer the best my brain can handle.

    No need for an apology; I totally understand. No worries at all.

    I can post these scriptures, they simply would be ignored.

    That is not quite accurate, dear pjs… I would not simply ignore any scripture… or other verse. I would do the three (3) things I always do:

    1. Listen to the spirit within me, as to whether it “bears witness” with the TRUTH of what the particular translation is stating; if it does, then I’m good to go. If it does not:

    2. I would ask… and then listen to… my Lord as to the authenticity and accuracy of the rendering, translation, transliteration, meaning, and purpose. Then, I would put FAITH in what I hear from him. Please note, on most occasions I don’t even need to ask – I can hear HIM, the Spirit, read the text as it should be, while I am readingit as presented. The truth is that this is the most frequent way I learn what I do about the Bible, what it says, and what it should say: he reads along with me and then may say, “No, child, it does NOT say that - read it again.” Or “THIS is what I stated, child,” etc. To help me TRUST him, as well as to understand how this works, he later showed me two (2) verses, which I quote to you with the same emphasis and inflection as he stated them to me:

    Job 12:11Does not the ear itself TEST the words… as the palate tastes food?”

    Dear one, does your tongue not tell when food is “tainted”? Shouldn’t your ear, then, also be able to tell when words are “tainted”? It should!

    Proverbs 8:4-9– “To YOU, O men, I amcalling and MY voice is to the sons of men. O inexperienced ones, understand shrewdness; and you stupid ones, understand heart. LISTEN, for it is about the foremost things that I speak, and the opening of my lips is about uprightness. For MY palate… in low tones… utters TRUTH itself; and wickedness is something detestable to MY lips. ALL the sayings of MY mouth are in righteousness. Among them there is NOTHING twisted… or crooked. ALL of them are straight… to the discerning one… and upright… to the ones finding knowledge.”

    Dear one, our Lord SPEAKS… to US… but in very “low” tones… on a kind of different “frequency”… very similar to how a dog can hear things humans can’t. We must LISTEN.) Those you associate with cannot tell you this… because they do not know it, themselves!

    3. Then, to help YOU know what the true rendering is, I would research it, including its origin, etymology, and potential other words that may have been overlooked and/or should have been used instead so as to share with YOU what my Lord already shared with me.

    He directs me to do this because of yourlack of faith: meaning, rather than exercising FAITH and LISTENING to him yourself… which he directs ALL of us to do… you would need to see something “in writing” in order to put faith in it. Rather than “walking by faith”… you would still need to “walk by sight.” That’s because, unfortunately, earthling man, including the leaders of the WTBTS, have taught you that God does NOT speak… and thus, neither does Christ. Demons speak, Satan speaks, but not God and/or Christ. I ask you: HOW CAN THAT BE??!!!! If ALL “authority” has been given to our Lord… in heaven… AND ON EARTH… how is it that demons can communicate directly with us… but he CAN’T? THINK, dear pjs… THINK!

    AGuest does not believe in the bible. So what good would it do?

    I do not believe the Bible to be the Word of God, true. But this is because it is not. God’s Word has NEVER been a mere inanimate collection of writings. God’s Word… is ALIVE:

    Hebrews 4:12 – “For the Word of God is ALIVE and energetic* and is sharper than any two-edged sword and pierces even to the dividing of soul and spirit, and of joints and their marrow, and able to discern thoughts and intentions of the heart.” Proverbs 21:2, Proverbs 24:12; John 1:47, 48; John 2:25; Revelation 19:15; (*- see footnote, NWT Ref. Bible)

    God’s [only] Word came and resided among earthling man in the flesh… was then put to death in the flesh… and then was resurrected to LIFE… as a SPIRIT. Thus, he LIVES! The Bible is merely a pedagogue… a collection of writings that contains the “tutor” that leads to God’s Word, Christ. God’s Word… became flesh… and literally resided among us. John 1:14; Revelation 19:13; 2 Corinthians 3:17(see, NWT Ref. Bible App. 1D);1 Corinthians 15:45(notice, the word “became”… not “will become”)

    In its “Questions from Readers,” the WTBTS once asked: “What is the Truth that sets us free?” and answered: “It is the information contained in God’s Holy Word, the Bible.” Unfortunately, that is not the truth. When I read this answer, I immediately heard my Lord say, “I am the truth that sets you free, child.” My heart almost stopped! But he didn’t stop there: he took me to the verses that substantiate this truth:

    John 8:32 - “If you remain in my word, you are really my disciples, and you will KNOW the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

    John 14:6 – “I… am the Way… and the Truth… and the Life.”

    John 8:36 – “Therefore if the SON sets you free… you will actually BE free.”

    The TRUTH, therefore, that sets us FREE, dear one… is the Holy One of Israel, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH, the Son and Christ of the MOST Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies. That One revealed this very truth to me, himself.

    She can read the bible for herself if she is so inclined. Is that what all of you have been saying read the bible, don't look for someone else to do it. And tell you what it says. If aguest knows the scriptures so well, why is she asking me? Is it entrapment? It seems so.

    Indeed, I can read the Bible… for myself and for you. And I do and have. I do not know the scriptures so well, though; I only know them as my Lord directs me to them. I asked you, however, because you made a statement that “God has an arrangement.” I believe that you believe God has an arrangement, but NOT because you actually know what that arrangement is, but merely because certain men have told you that God has an arrangement. Well, I could tell you that, too. But I should at least be able to support such a statement somehow. Those you follow claim to get their “authority” from the Bible. So, I asked you to show me, where in the Bible… or anywhere else other than the WT, does it speak of such an arrangement? Did I ask an unfair question?

    You can twist the scriptures to your own destruction. Yes this can be done. That is why we need holy spirit. Pray for it, and the scriptures will come alive for you.

    Anyone can “twist” the scriptures, yes! And that’s why I asked you to substantiate your claim re God’s “arrangement”… because I believe that the men you follow have done just that! And you are correct: we need holy spirit. But it NOT the scriptures that come alive for you as a result of receiving such spirit: it is God’s Son HIMSELF… His WORD… that comes to you! And, again, he is very much alive! And he SPEAKS! If you don’t believe me, if you need to see where this truth is “written,” then, please, read again, for yourself… the words at Proverbs 4:8-9. Because these are the basis for the words written to the Hebrews:

    Hebrews 12:25 – “See that you do not beg off from him who is speaking. For if they did not escape who begged off from him who was giving divine warning upon the earth, much more shall we not if we turn away from him who speaks… from the heavens.”

    It is evident in the scriptures that there would be appointments for different services.

    Different services, yes. Service. As in serving. As in others. And I will discuss that “service,” below. But service is NOT leading, as per Christ, we have a leader. Him. Matthew 23:10

    It also states where two or more are gathered together, there my spirit would be also.

    Yes! But where it is “written” that you must “associate” with more? In the letter to the Hebrews, where it speaks of not forsaking the gathering of ourselves together? Perhaps. I will address that below, since you’ve addressed it.

    We also would be overturning strongly entrenched things.(False teachings)

    Which is the purpose of my question to you. It is strongly entrenched in you that the WTBTS is God’s “arrangement.” I say to you, by the spirit that is in me, holy spirit, which spirit I received from the One who has authority to dispense it, from whose innermost parts such spirit flows… it is not. The WTBTS is NOT God’s arrangement. It is not God’s “anything” at all.

    Paul said: not to forsake our gathering together, all the more so as you see the day drawing near. (The end of this system)

    First, dear one, I say to you truthfully, Paul did not write the letter to the Hebrews. Per my Lord, that letter was penned by our beloved brother, John. To corroborate this, he had me re-read John’s gospel account, letters, and the Revelation… and then re-read the letter to the Hebrews. I implore you to do the same and see if you do not also discern who the true writer was.

    Be that as it may, what “gathering” was the writer speaking of? Field service? Public talks? Service meetings? Book Studies? Theocratic Ministry meetings? Or just a bunch of meetings period? No. He was speaking of the gathering where the flesh and blood of Christ was to be shared: this is something we are NOT to “forsake,” ANY of us. 1 Corinthians 11:20, 33; Matthew 24:28; Luke 18:37; Job 39:30; John 6:48-58; Luke 22:19

    And yet, many are not permitted, are they? In direct violation of the COMMANDMENT of Christ. Now, you and others might say that no one “stops” anyone from eating and drinking, but you know that’s not entirely true. By means of their “talks” and publications, most are encouraged NOT to partake of the flesh and blood of Christ,although HE is recorded to have said that that is the ONLY way they will be resurrected and live forever. They are taught that they have “life in themselves,” which directly contradicts what Christ himself is recorded to have said. John 6:48-58; Luke 22:19

    How then, can those you follow say “The Law of God is with US?” They cannot! Jeremiah 8:8-12

    The angels are separating the wheat from the chaff, the wheat he would collect into his store house. Or collecting his faithful servants on earth together. Wheat being those who have been enlightened, following Jesus, let by true scriptural teachings.

    This is another false teaching. The angels don’t actually do the separating work – they gather whom my Lord tells them to gather, whether as “wheat” or as “chaff.” They are merely the reapers, but it is he who tells them who to “reap”. Also, the separating does not even begin until the 1,000 years have started… which occurs after Satan has been abyssed. Let me show you, please:

    Matthew 13:30, 39-41 – “Let both grow together until the harvest; and in the harvest season I will tell the reapers, First collect the WEEDS and bind them in bundles to burn them up, THEN go gathering the wheat into my storehouse. …The harvest is a joint end of a system of things. The Son of man will send forth his angels, and they will collect out from his kingdom all things that cause stumbling and persons who are doing lawlessness…”

    Matthew 24:29-44(paraphrased, so please read ALL) - “Immediately AFTER the great tribulation… And then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send forth his angels… and they will gather his chosen ones together… two men will be in the field… one will be taken… and the other be abandoned…”

    Matthew 25:31 – “When the Son of man arrives in his glory… and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. And all the nations will be gathered before him, and HE will separate people one from another…”

    Revelation 20:2, 4 – “And he seized the great dragon… and bound him for a thousand years. … And I saw thrones, and there were those who sat down on them, and power of judging was given them.”

    This is how the sequence occurs, dear one:

    Our Lord was installed as king when he entered into heaven and offered up his perfect sacrifice. From that time, he began ruling… and went “subduing”… while his enemies still existed. This “subduing” consists of choosing ones to share his kingdom for 1,000 years (only their share is for 1,000 years – HIS rulership is forever)… which he does (subdues) by teaching them peace, love, faith, kindness, etc. He is “preparing a place”… for them to dwell in God… and God… in them. Thus, it is US he is “subduing” and “preparing.” While he is doing that, his INVISIBLE presence is with us… until the “system” (that belongs to our Adversary, the Devil) ends.

    The system “ends”… when he returns… at which time EVERY eye literally SEES him. Including those who have died. At that time, those who died, but were in union with him, are resurrected to SPIRIT bodies… at the same time as those who are in union with him but have NOT died… are changed… to spirit bodies. That is what he meant when he said, “He that believes in me and has died will be brought back to life and he that has not died… will never die.” They never die, because they are instantly changed… from flesh… to spirit. Those who have died… are resurrected. This is the FIRST resurrection.

    Satan is abyssed… and the 1,000-year reign begins. That reign IS the ‘separating of the sheep and goats’! It is when, based on how they treated Christ’s brothers, ones are determined to be either sheep… and are granted entry into the kingdom as SUBJECTS… or goats… who are CUT OFF from entry into the kingdom. These are not destroyed, yet, however; they allowed to live until the END of the 1,000 years… at which time Satan is loosed… and allowed to go and mislead them (Gog) some more… along with the wicked spirits (Magog) who are also reserved for fire.

    When these attempt to come against the HolyCity (i.e., the chosen ones), meaning, when these are “gathered to the place in Hebrew called Harmaggedon”… it is THEN that fire comes down out of heaven and destroys them. THIS… is “the great day of God Almighty”… the “War”… at Harmaggedon. At it occurs once… after the 1,000 years have ended.

    The “separating” work occurs like this:

    Each one is brought before the throne of Christ and his co-rulers. Based on what they did to such ones, they can be judged. HOWEVER… because my Lord has taught us NOT to judge… but has anointed us as PRIESTS… we offer up “sacrifices”… prayers… for such to be spared. ALL of them. In this way, we act as kings (i.e., with power of judging) AND priests (i.e., with mercy and forgiveness). It is up to HIM, therefore, to decide the outcome: whether they are “sheep”… or “goats.” Like him, although we have POWER to judge… we do not. Just as he, although having the power, gives it to the Father, we… although having the power… give it to him. That is WHY we are “chosen”… because we are those who have learned peace… learned love… learned forgiveness… learned mercy… and live it. Even in our “glory.”

    Please note that I was concerned that I would need to write an entire Bible book to give you all the supporting verses, but I am instructed by my Lord that there is no need, that you will “hear” the truth of what I have shared with you from him… and will know which verses to look up should you need to. Therefore, I leave this part to you and him… and stand ready if you do need assistance.

    Outlaw, you have good points. We have been let down by these projections, but we are going through severe tests now, tests of our faith. I will have a waiting attitude on Jehovah. Where else can we go? form splinter groups?

    Dear one, there is no WHERE else to go. There is only a WHOM: John 6:68; 7:37; Matthew 11:28

    Now, to address the WT excerpt(s):

    7 Those thus appointed are not called "princes," "shepherds" or "pastors," however, but are commonly called "servants." This emphasizes their relationship to the organization and their responsibility toward those in their charge. Jesus made this position quite clear to his apostles. "Jesus, calling them to him, said: ‘You know that the rule's of the nations lord it over them and the great men wield authority over them. This is not the way among you; but whoever wants to become great among you must be your minister, and whoever wants to be first among you must be your slave.'" (Matt. 20:25-27) Since a slave or servant is one who ministers to the needs of a master or employer, those in positions of responsibility Who are called "servants" are not ministered to but minister willingly to those in need in the congregation. In this they follow the example of Jesus, who said: "Just as the Son of man came, not to be ministered to, but to minister and to give his soul a ransom in exchange for many." Matt. 20:28) Not only are such servants responsible to those in their charge but they are also liable to Jehovah God for the welfare of these "sheep." It is only reasonable, then, that Jehovah would require the "sheep" to be willingly submissive to the shepherds. "Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among you and be submissive, for they are keeping watch over your souls as those who will render an account; that they may do this with joy and not with sighing, for this would be damaging to you."-Heb. 13:17.

    Okay, so let’s address the subject of the “service” that was to be performed. Matthew 20:28 talked about the Son of man coming to minister. How did he “minister”? Well, he healed the sick, fed the hungry, expelled demons, forgave sins, resurrected the dead… and bore witness to the truth about the Most Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies, by doing these things and by how he lived his life: in love, pity, and compassion for others, while keeping himself free from sin. When Hebrews talks about those “taking the lead” it is NOT talking about those who are “masters over our faith.” It is talking about those who were OVERSEERS.

    Who were the overseers and what was their responsibility? Dear one, one the FIRST thing the early congregation did was to pool their possessions and resources so that those who did not have could have. So much was given, however, that it had to be distributed: to the widows first, starting with the older widows, then to the fatherless children, then to others in need. The 12, however, did not have time to handle oversight of these goods. So, they sought direction from the Holy Spirit, which appointed 7 men to “oversee the distribution.” These men where then directed to appoint “[ministerial] servants” to make sure the goods got where they were supposed to go. Some of those “servants”… were women (of course, they would be, because men could not visit single women (widows)… and so other women had to make sure these received their portion. Acts 4:35; 6:1-6;

    That was it. That was all. They were to “oversee”… the distribution. In order to ensure the distribution was done fairly, however, because some concern had been raised, there were criteria: the overseers had to be “husbands of one wife.” This did not mean they had to be monogamous; it meant that they had to be men who had only been married once… or, if married more than once, had been widowed or received a “proper” divorce (i.e., on grounds of fornication/adultery). Otherwise, in God’s eyes, they were men of [more than one] wife. This was true for the male ministerial servants, as well. 1 Timothy 3:1-7, 12

    As for those who taught about God and Christ, they were both men and women. The WTBTS misstates Paul’s reason for not allowing the women to [teach/speak] in public. They refer back so some “law” that supposedly started with Adham (but no can show that law). The TRUTH is that Paul made his admonishment due to the ROMAN law at the time, which prohibited women from speaking in public. And he only made it to those congregations that were in territories under Roman rule. This is because since the Jews were looking for reasons to silence the Christians, and Romans disliked them because of their loyalty to Christ rather than Caesar, any excuse was used to put Christians to death. Hence, Paul knew that a woman speaking in a public place, let alone teaching in one, could put the entire congregation at risk of death. So, he admonished that the husbands would go the public places and hear him, and then relate that back to their wives who waited at home. Thus, the wives had to learn “at home from their husbands.” That was it; that was all. In non-Roman territories… and when they got together in HOMES, however, the women were allowed to speak and learn just as the men. In time, male-domination of the Christian world took completely over and women were relegated to a place of virtual obscurity. But it was not always like that and it certainly wasn’t true of our Lord. Acts 16:14; 18:26; Romans 16:1-16: Luke 10:38-42; John 4:7-29 (pay close attention to verse 27, because there our Lord set the example for how his disciples SHOULD be, which the verse indicates they weren’t. Some years after he left, this same kind of misogyny - which did not exist under the Law but was brought on by Roman rule - returned. Judges 4:4; Luke 2:36; Acts 21:9; Galatians 3:28)

    8 In submitting yourself to Jehovah's visible organization as administered by such servants, you are still not required or expected to follow men. On the contrary, Paul counseled: "Remember those who are taking the lead among you, who have spoken the word of God to you, and as you contemplate how their conduct turns out imitate their faith." (Heb. 13:7) It is the faith of these men that is to be imitated and their course of conduct that is to be observed.

    I have to comment here that God has no VISIBLE organization today. The last VISIBLE manifestation, for the world, was the temple at Jerusalem, with the smoke (by day) and fire (by night) representing God’s present in that temple. From there, God’s spirit entered into our Lord… and, for US… HE became the LAST “visible” representation of God on earth. From there, the spirit has been consistently poured out upon God’s people… and while there was a brief display of flames above the heads of those present at Pentecost 30 CE, no such “visible” anything has occurred since.

    But that is the POINT: we are to walk by FAITH… and NOT by sight! We don’t NEED a visible representation… or, more appropriately, a GOLDEN CALF, to “represent” God for us. We have His SON… whose presence is INVISIBLE. That does not mean, however, that we cannot HEAR him. We can… for he speaks.

    Just as alive and active… but invisible… because he is a SPIRIT… so, too, his “organization “ is alive and active… but invisible.

    9 These men too, though occupying responsible positions of oversight themselves, recognize and submit to the superior appointment of the "faithful and discreet slave." In doing so, they are quick to heed the admonition of Peter, one of the earlier members of that body. He said: "Humble yourselves, therefore, under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time." (1 Pet. 5:6)

    Dear one, Christ…. IS the “faithful and discreet slave.” HE is the One who dispenses our “food.” We live… by means of “manna from heaven,” just as Israel of the flesh lived in the wilderness at Sinai before us. He is the Greater Joseph who, in this time of [spiritual] famine… dispenses “grain”… the holy spirit of God… by means of which “food” we live. We “eat” this “food”… by partaking of his FLESH… and drinking of his BLOOD… the TRUE food… and TRUE drink. John 6:55

    In contrast, the EVIL slave is the one who, thinking his master is delaying, begins to “beat” his fellow slaves. In light of what the WTBTS has done… and is doing… to those who claim to be Christ’s brothers within them… as well as those who claim a [unfortunately, contrived] “earthly” hope… they show themselves to be this slave, which is NOT the same as the “faithful and discreet slave.”

    Acting for the "faithful and discreet slave," they realize the grave responsibility entrusted to them as representatives of the heavenly Kingdom government and constantly seek Jehovah's direction and spirit to enable them to discharge their assignment "for justice itself" in harmony with the righteousness of Jesus Christ's reign, not deviating at any time for the sake of expediency or self-aggrandizement. (Acts 8:4-17)

    I’m sorry, but I cannot see where the verse relates to the statement. I found this occurred often in the WT publications, however, and am not surprised. They very often throw in some obscure verse in an attempt to support their own position. But this is really one of those times when, while imitating their faith, we are to contemplate how their conduct (i.e., misusing verses for their own end) will turn out.

    Does the record of the modern "faithful and discreet slave" reveal that this has been the concern for Jehovah's "sheep" in these last days? A brief review of some facts might be reassuring.

    10 Great strides in theocratic procedure have been made since 1919 C.E. This is graphically portrayed in the prophetic drama of the ministries of the prophets Elijah and Elisha in ancient Israel. As foretold by Malachi: "Look! I am sending to you people Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and fear-inspiring day of Jehovah. And he must turn the heart of fathers back toward sons, and the heart of sons back toward fathers; in order that I may not come and actually strike the earth with a devoting of it to destruction."

    (Mal. 4:5, 6) The original Elijah was a prominent witness of Jehovah in the tenth century B.C.E., five centuries before Malachi uttered his prophecy. This Elijah that was to come had a small-scale fulfillment in John the Baptist, but the Elijah of Malachi's prophecy was scheduled to appear in our own fateful day, just before and during the time of the end of this present system of things. True to the prophecy, in modern times the "faithful and discreet slave" has appeared to perform the foretold work of Elijah.

    11 "This began a period of making Jehovah's requirements in righteousness stronger within the modern congregation that might be likened to Israel in its earlier days in the Promised Land. At first, even though the nation was united under theocratic law and judges ruled, "what was right in his own eyes was what each one was accustomed to do."Why did this loose organization exist? The account says: "In those days there was no king in Israel ."(Judg. 21:25) So it was in the earlier days of the modern theocratic organization.

    First, dear one, the above statement is contradictory. You can’t be united AND everyone doing their own thing. But even worse, a lack of a king was NOT a bad thing in Israel ! It was the request FOR a king that began their demise! And is why the ‘bad’ things you see occurring in the WTBTS are occurring: they wanted a ‘king’ and so were granted one. But… they also had to deal with the “portion” given the king. And the members of the WTBTS are dealing with just that. 1 Samuel 8:7-22

    Jehovah's administration of righteousness took a pronounced forward step with the return of the Christian congregation to apostolic teachings. But before the King, Jesus Christ, was enthroned in 1914 C.E. the organization was loosely administered. Each "ecclesia" or congregation was self-governed by elected "elders" and "deacons." But in 1914 Jehovah enthroned his King Jesus Christ, and from 1919 onward the time became due for Jeremiah's prophecy to be fulfilled: "‘And I myself shall collect together the remnant of my sheep out of all the lands to which I had dispersed them, and I will bring them back to their pasture ground, and they will certainly be fruitful and become many. And I will raise up over them shepherds who will actually shepherd them; and they will be afraid no more, neither will they be struck with any terror, and none will be missing,' is the utterance of Jehovah."- Jer. 23:3, 4.
    12 This benefit of theocratic administration did not come all at once. In 1932 the "elective elders" were replaced in the congregation by an appointed "service director," who was assisted by a group of mature members of the congregation democratically elected to their positions. But not until 1938 did the final change to strictly theocratic order take place.
    In that year, through the columns of The Watchtower, it was revealed from the Scriptures that the power of appointment of servants in congregations rightfully rests with the governing body of the "faithful and discreet slave" as directed by Jesus Christ from Jehovah's temple.

    And here they’re saying that things got right in 1914, no, wait, 1919, no, wait, it didn’t really all come together until 1932, well, actually, not until 1938… because things kept needing to be changed. Do you realize this is saying that the Most Holy One of Israel couldn’t get things together in one shot?? Okay, so let’s say it takes more than one shot. They state that “not until 1938 ‘did the FINAL change to strictly theocratic order take place.” And, yet, they have made MANY changes since then. Servants aren’t appointment by the “faithful and discreet slave.” The WTBTS FDS consists of ALL “anointed” members, does it not? (See, Insight Book). Even so, servants aren’t even appointed by the GB. They are appointed by the local congregation and approved by the CO. Period. NONE of whom are “anointed” (in most cases), let alone members of the FDS. C’mon, dear pjs, THINK!!

    As for “appointment” resting with the “governing body”… what “governing body?” There was never any governing body in the early congregation. Where did one come from? What is the basis for one? Who appointed one? What scriptures create this body… or grant this authority?

    This important step in the restoration of theocratic order assured Jehovah's "sheep" that they would not again be separated into independent "flocks" by unscrupulous "shepherds." The shepherds that Jehovah promised through Jeremiah would be those fully in agreement with Jesus' words that "they will become one flock, one shepherd."- John 10:16.

    And yet, they teach two hopes, two flocks, two mediators, etc.

    This was the quickest way, but if your everlasting life is in the balance, I can accumulate scriptures, for you if that would make a difference.

    I am sorry to have to impose on you, but would make a difference, yes. If your position is that “the WTBTS says,” then there really is no way I can even begin to reason with you. So, yes, I would like the scriptures, if you can provide them.

    I've alway been for the holy spirit and his written word. If the Org. goes against the holy spirit, I will dump the org.

    Dear one, the Most Holy One of Israel no longer has a “written” word. His ONLY “written” words were (1) the stone tablets given to Moses, which He wrote directly, and (2) Moses, the Psalms, and the Prophets. Luke 24:27, 32, 44, 45; Revelation 1:11, 19

    HOWEVER, I want to quote the words of Paul to you, because this is THE number one mistake those who “search the scriptures” (John 5:39, 40 ) stumble over:

    Galatians 3:12-15 – “Therefore, as WE have such a HOPE, WE are using GREAT freeness of speech, and NOT doing as when Moses would put a veil upon HIS face, that the sons of Israel might NOT gaze intently at the END of that which was to be DONE AWAY WITH (i.e., the Law Covenant). But THEIR mental powers were DULLED. For TO THIS PRESENT DAY… the SAME veil remains… UNLIFTED… AT THE READING OF THE OLD COVENANT… because… IT IS DONE AWAY WITH… by means of CHRIST. In fact, down to this dayWHENEVER MOSES IS READ… A VEIL… LIES UPON THEIR HEARTS. BUT… when there is a turning to THE LORD (see ftn. NWT Ref. Bible, App. 1D)… THE VEIL IS TAKEN AWAY.


    Galatians 4:3-5 - “If, now, the good news WE declare is in fact veiled, it is veiled, among those who are perishing, among whom the god of THIS system of things had blinded the minds of the Unbelievers, that the illumination of the glorious GOOD news about the Christ… who is the IMAGE of God, might NOT shine through. For we are preaching NOT ourselves… but CHRIST Jaheshua as Lord… and ourselves… AS YOUR SLAVES… for Jaheshua’s sake.”

    This is my message to you, dear pjschipper, and all those of the Household of God, Israel, as well as those who go with them… and the world. We are not to preach ourselves… but Christ… and him ONLY. Therefore, the message would be “Go to HIM”… not “come to us.”

    Jeff I want to say, you and your x having to pay your way back, and brothers dismissed from bethel, is very unloving. It upsets me that they do this. They have $ to help. I can not understand why they do this. You and others have been left in the learch , to fend on your own. Not what I thought the brotherhood should do. Down right bad. I really have no answer for their conduct. I see why so many are down on the org.

    There is a reason they do what they do, dear one… and that you feel as you do about it. It is WRONG… it is UNKIND… it is UNLOVING… it lacks FAITH in God, and… therefore, it is not FROM God. You know it. You just don’t know where else to go. Again, there is no “where” else. There is only a “whom.” John 6:68

    But don't be down of Jesus and his arrangement.

    Unfortunately, that is what happens when earthling man takes the glory of God for himself: he also brings reproach upon God when he screws up, which he will do if he exalts himself. And these exalt themselves. Very high. To the throne of God, even. May JAH have mercy on them.

    We cannot see what is happening in all its detail.

    You could if you had eyes of FAITH. Nothing is hidden in that case for the Christ reveals it all.

    I cannot see going to another church, the doctrines and worship are quite evident. It just is appalling what the WTS is doing, and yes there is mind control.

    Of course, you can’t for there no other “church” to go to – dear one, we ARE the “church”! We are LIVING stones… in the temple of God! And, of course, they are all the same. They are, all of them, false “lights,” designed by our Adversary, the Devil, to attract… and eventually “kill”… the children of light. There is only ONE Light, however, that will keep us alive – the TRUE Light, Christ. John 8:12

    I've been abused by JC, I know it exists.

    On behalf of ALL who are the Household of God, Israel, those who go with them, those who claim to be such but are not… and mankind, in general, dear one, I apologize. Sincerely. No one, including you, should EVER undergo abuse in the name of God and/or Christ; however, HAPPY you are… if you do! Do not, however, return evil for evil. JAH sees… and will repay YOU for YOUR conduct of faith. Matthew 5:10, 11

    In Ca. working on a hall one elder said to me. That is working on something, will you do this for me? I thought no, I'm doing this to futher the Kingdom of Christ . Franz gave a talk that the elder's would be princes in the earth, he took that as an position to Lord it over others. But I know the weakness of men. And I go ahead the best I can to promote the Kingdom of Christ .

    If you want to truly promote the kingdom of Christ… then “SEPARATE yourself and QUIT touching the UNCLEAN thing.” Ask God to send you His Truth… to let you KNOW His Son… because it is THIS that means everlasting life: KNOWING the True God… AND the One whom He sent forth. KNOWING them… not knowing about them. 2 Corinthians 6:17, 18; John 17:3; Luke 11:13

    And I will not let any man or Org. get in my way. Or the tricks satan uses to stop the preaching of the Kingdom, Mt. 24:14. We can lose site of this and be causalities of war.

    Good for you! That is how it SHOULD be! And, yes, Satan KEEPS transforming himself into an angel… of Light!

    I would have to have holy spirit direct me somewhere else.

    And nothing and no one else! Not even me. 1 John 2:27 I can only share with you (and others) what that One shares with me, if and when he directs. But you are HIS sheep. HE gave his life for you… not me. I am just as unworthly and imperfect as you are. BUT… I received what I have freely from him… and so give it freely, as well. Even if you were to continue asking me questions, at some point I would have to “leave” you. It happens all the time. My Lord says to me, “It is time for you to get out of the way, child.” And so I tell the one I have been sent to help, “You must go with him and listen to him… alone and on your own, now. I am here if he directs, but you MUST learn to trust and exercise faith in him.” And they do… and now they walk with him in their own relationship. I am just a servant, and a brief, good-for-nothing-one at that. The sheep do not belong to me. I am his servant and, therefore, theirs.

    In Jehovah's organization it is not necessary to spend a lot of time and energy in research, for there are brothers in the organization who are assigned to that very thing

    This is a VERY dangerous thing, dear brother pjs… very dangerous. Remember, you must TEST the inspired expression… because not ALL inspired expressions originate with God. How, then, do YOU know if what such “brothers” tell you are true? How do you know THEIR hearts? You do not. Dear one, they are NO different from the scribes of our Lord’s day in the flesh, to whom he said, “WOE, to you… hypocrites!” Please… THINK!

    since "oneness" is to be observed, a mature Christian must be in unity and full harmony with fellow believers as far as faith and knowledge are concerned. He does not advocate or insist on personal opinions or harbor private ideas when it comes to Bible understanding. Rather, he has complete confidence in the truth as it is revealed by Jehovah God through his Son, Jesus Christ, and "the faithful and discreet slave. Watchtower, Aug. 1, 2001.

    This is lie. God reveals the truth through His Son… who reveals it directly to his servants. He IS the “faithful and discreet slave.”

    From time to time, there have arisen from among the ranks of Jehovah's people those, who, like the original Satan, have adopted an independent, faultfinding attitude...They say that it is sufficient to read the Bible exclusively, either alone or in small groups at home. But, strangely, through such 'Bible reading,' they have reverted right back to the apostate doctrines that commentaries by Christendom's clergy were teaching 100 years ago... Watchtower, Aug. 15, 1981.

    Did not the WTBTS (okay, the Bible Students) start out this way? Beware the leaven… which is hypocrisy. It was okay when they marched with signs, and made cartoons maligning others, but it is not okay when the same happens to them. They are now in the very same position as the Catholic Church when the first “adopted an independent fault-finding attitude” against that organization!

    Watchtower 2003 2/15 5 Should those now doing good to the remnant of the 144,000 brothers of Christ partake of the Lord’’s Evening Meal? (Matthew 25:31-40; Revelation 14:1)No. God has reserved that privilege for individuals he has anointed with holy spirit to be "joint heirs with Christ. " (Romans 8:14-18; 1 John 2:20) What, then, is the position of those who hope to live forever in a global paradise under Kingdom rule? (Luke 23:43; Revelation 21:3, 4) Since they are not Jesus’’ joint heirs with a heavenly hope, they attend the Memorial as respectful observers.——Romans 6:3-5.

    And this is their greatest crime! By this very teaching they “shut up the kingdom of the heavens before men”! Indeed, EVERYONE who left Egypt, whether of Israel or of the vast mixed company, ate the manna and drank from the rock-mass… which is the Christ! These, however, have now created TWO laws between Israel and those who go with them. Again, may JAH have mercy on them! Matthew 23:13;John 6:51, 53, 1 Corinthians 10:1-5; Numbers 11:4-9

    Watchtower 1981 Why is that true? It is because the Founder of the celebration set it up for observance by those with whom he made a covenant for the heavenly kingdom.

    Ummmm… first, dear pjs, there were only 12 present when he set it up. Yet, thousands were added later, indeed, per the WTBTS, at least 144,000. They were all there when he set it up. Second, Judas WAS present (read Luke 1:1-4), because the “covenant” was made with 12 tribes… not 11. Thus, he was given a “polluted” morsel… to indicate HIS uncleanliness. But the covenant was made… for all 12 tribes… and he was replaced LATER… after all 12 tribes had been represented and taken into the covenant! Sigh!)

    Although dedicated and baptized, those of the "great crowd" recognize that they have not been taken into that covenant for the Kingdom. They are not spiritual Israelites, forasmuch as they have not been taken into the "new covenant," which is made with spiritual Israelites through the Mediator Jesus Christ.

    Again, they err: First, if they are NOT in the Ark [of the Covenant], how are they to be “saved?” No one outside the Ark in Noah’s day survived! Second, the great crowd, dear one, is “standing BEFORE the throne” AND “rendering SACRED service… IN THE TEMPLE.” Who can render SACRED service… other than a priest?! Did not Saul receive punishment for attempting to offer up a sacrifice, although he was not a priest?! But we know they are priests, because Revelation 5:9, 10 states:

    “YOU are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, be cause YOU were slaughtered and with YOUR blood you BOUGHT persons for God… out of EVERY tribe and tongue and people and nation… and you made THEM to be a KINGDOM AND PRIESTS to our God… and they are to RULE AS KINGS… over the earth.”

    This IS speaking about the great crowd, dear one, who rule as kings, along with 144,000 “from among the sons of Abraham” with Christ. Here’s what that’s all about:

    God made a promise to Abraham that his seed would be His chosen nation. And He tried to make them a holy nation, one that was worthy of being His chosen people. But they kept rebelling. And He kept forgiving them. Finally, they committed the ultimate rejection by having God’s Son put to death. The King GOD had chosen for them… they rejected. SOOOOOooooo… God turned His attention to the NATIONS… to take out of THEM… a people for His Name. BUT… He did not reject Israel entirely. He made sure that there were 144,000 slots reserved for Abraham’s seed. The REST of the “holy nation,” however, will come from people out of EVERY nation, tribe, and tongue. The end result is that, rather than the entire nation of fleshly Israel being God’s chosen nation, that “nation” is now made up of Israel AND the nations. The 144,000 AND the great crowd. That’s why you see the great crowd standing before the throne of God (which is IN heaven… and not “in sight of” heaven – sheesh – as well as “rendering SACRED (i.e., priestly) service IN the temple… which is ALSO in heaven.

    They have not been begotten with the holy spirit that began to be poured out upon the 120 disciples at Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost of 33 C.E.

    Another serious error. First, they are begotten with holy spirit. They are the “nations” from which God takes a people for His name. Second, there weren’t 120 disciples in the upper room at Pentecost. We don’t know how many there were. The 120 people were gathered in a room on an entirely different day. Acts 1:14 (one day, in the upper chamber); 1:15(during the same time period, but not necessarily the same day; in fact, several days are indicated); 2:1 (an entirely different day than indicated in the former two verses, and the day of Pentecost. Where they were, specifically, and how many were there is NOT indicated). Third, it was 30 CE, not 33 CE. My Lord was born in the late part of 4 th year BEFORE the common era. We know this based on the year during Herod’s rule when a great eclipse occurred. The WTBTS uses 30 CE to support their erroneous 607BCE and 1914CE theories.

    Figuratively speaking, they have not "died together with Christ" by giving up all future earthly prospects of life in a Paradise earth under God’’s kingdom. They do not expect to be "buried" with Christ, that they may be "in the likeness of his resurrection."

    They have not… and have no such expectation… because they were told they didn’t NEED one… and that none existed! This is a LIE!

    So if they partook of the bread and the wine that primarily symbolize the fleshly body and the blood of Jesus Christ, they would be falsifying the fact that they are not in such arrangements with Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God. For that reason they abstain from partaking of these emblems with the anointed remnant.

    Oh my, oh my, oh my! THIS is where their blasphemy comes in! There is only ONE arrangement, dear one, and that is to come into the Covenant. There is no OUTSIDE arrangement. They abstain… because the WTBTS has wickedly, insidiously, and deceitfully… taught them that they should NOT! My Lord said, ANYONE!

    However, their not partaking does not preclude their gaining everlasting life, for that comes through faith in Jesus Christ and the provision of the ransom sacrifice.——Rom. 6:4, 5; Col. 2:12, 20; 1 John 2:1, 2.

    It may. Because my Lord said, “UNLESS you eat the flesh of the son of man AND drink his blood… YOU HAVE NO LIFE IN YOURSELVES.” John 6:53

    It can be debated who is captive. I see mind sets that will not be overturned by any reasoning. Who really is the faithful and descreet slave? It would be doing the feeding of spiritual food. I don't think the scriptures say that it would be those of the heavenly calling, correct me if I'am wrong. It just says those who are doing this work.

    Christ… is the Faithful and Discreet Slave… and it is he who feeds us… from the storehouse of the Greater Pharaoh, JAH of Armies. We can only substitute as “ambassadors” for Christ… and (1) tell people about him and God, and (2) live the lives he taught us: freely forgiving, freely releasing, showing mercy, and using our gifts of the spirit to build up the Body of Christ.

    Do the annointed write much of anything today?

    Dear one, the "anointed" have never written much of anything. And particularly since 1972. When I met with Carey Barber he personally told me that the GB hasn’t had ANYTHING to do with the writing of the WT and AW since 1972, when they turned things over to the “Joshua Class” in anticipation of 1975. He said that the first WTBTS video shows how the information is compiled… and it does. There is a HUGE file rooms and various men simply “research” what they want to put in article from those files. Then, it is reviewed by the Writing Department for “accuracy” (i.e., what the current “understanding” is), etc.

    And it certainly goes against scripture to say all his people do not have holy spirit. Jesus reveals the father to those he chooses to.

    You are absolutely correct here: it goes against scripture to say all his people do NOT have holy spirit. But HAVING holy spirit means what? That one has received… and, therefore, been CHOSEN, by such spirit! If, therefore, one does NOT have holy spirit… one is NOT anointed. And if one is not anointed, one is NOT… an “anointed” person. A “christ-ian.”

    14 The second question also reminds the candidate of his responsibility to work with Jehovah's spirit-directed organization. We are not alone in serving God, and we need the help, support, and encouragement of "the whole association of brothers." (1 Peter 2:17; 1 Corinthians 12:12, 13) God's organization plays a vital role in our spiritual growth. It provides a wealth of Bible publicationsthat help us to grow in accurate knowledge, to act wisely when we are faced with problems, and to cultivate a close relationship with God.

    “To the making of many books there is NO end… and much DEVOTION to them is WEARISOME to the flesh.” Ecclesiastes 12:12

    I ask you: where were all the “Bible publications” that Paul used? John? David? Noah? Abraham? Joseph? Peter? Christ?

    Like a mother who makes sure that her child is well-fed and cared for, "the faithful and discreet slave" provides an abundance of timely spiritual food for our spiritual advancement.-Matthew 24:45-47; 1 Thessalonians 2:7, 8.

    Dear one, this is the wrong “mother.” Jerusalem Above is our mother… and she is FREE. Galatians 4:26 This “mother,” however, is the one written about at Revelation 17:5, the “mother of the harlots.” Truly. I do NOT lie to you.

    15 At weekly meetings, Jehovah's people receive the needed training and encouragement to be faithful Witnesses of Jehovah. (Hebrews 10:24, 25) The TheocraticMinistrySchool teaches us to speak in public, and the Service Meeting trains us to present our message effectively. Both at our meetings and through our personal study of Bible publications, we can see Jehovah's spirit at work, directing his organization. By means of these regular provisions, God alerts us to dangers, trains us to be effective ministers, and helps us to keep spiritually awake.-Psalm 19:7, 8, 11; 1 Thessalonians 5:6, 11; 1 Timothy 4:13.

    God warns us… through the anointing of holy spirit… which is what He gives to teaches us. Why? Because false christs, false prophets, wicked men, etc., all who rise FROM AMONG US… are out there. Blind guides. If they can’t save themselves, how can they save you??

    Wt. 4/1/06 we can see Jehovah's spirit at work... "the whole association of brothers." 2 Peter 2:17 "Honor [men] of all sorts, have love for the whole association of brothers, be in fear of God, have honor for the king." 1 Cor. 12:13 "For truly by one spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free and we were all made to drink one spirit."

    Then HOW can their be TWO hopes??!!!! How can some be in the covenant and others not, yet ALL are in the same BODY???

    How can you say only the annointed have spirit?

    Because THAT is what ANOINTED means: to have the spirit of God, to be CHOSEN by Him, through His Son… which spirit ADOPTS us as His children. What else IS there?

    Whew!! LOLOLOLOL! As I said, a lot to respond to. I hope, though, that I have not offended you, but help you to at least begin to think… and ask. The Most Holy One of Israel WILL answer if you call, IF your motive for asking is pure (i.e., because you truly want to know the Truth, as well as build up the Body of Christ, and not because you need some kind of “proof” of His existence – that negates faith, doesn’t it? – or want to be able to show people some kind of “special power.”)

    May the undeserved kindness and mercy of my God and Father, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the Most Holy One of Israel, whose name is JAH… of Armies… and the love and peace of His Son and Christ, my Lord, JAHESHUA (JAH Saves; Salvation of JAH) MISCHJAH (Chosen/Anointed of JAH)… be upon you… you and your entire household (Acts 2:39)… if you so wish it.

    I remain, your servant, as I am servant to the Household of God , Israel , and ALL those who go with, and fellow (?) slave of Christ,


  • The Almighty Homer
    The Almighty Homer

    Time to deprogram PJSCHIPPER

    You tube video


    Well pjsChipper..

    I`ll bet most of the board would love to see your Reply to Shelby..


    We await your Rebuttal..


    Your anwers to her Orginal 2 Questions..


  • The Almighty Homer
    The Almighty Homer

    JWs have been locked into their beliefs by utilizing fear through the WTS. mental indoctrination.

    PJSCHIPPER has signs of this all over his posts, its as obvious as the light of day.

    Perhaps one day he'll see the light of whats been going on in Brooklyn,

    It may finally be his own personal integrity that lifts him up out of this corporate style corruption.

    This publishing company takes peoples minds and their money.

  • garyneal

    Wt. 4/1/06 we can see Jehovah's spirit at work... "the whole association of brothers." 2 Peter 2:17 "Honor [men] of all sorts, have love for the whole association of brothers, be in fear of God, have honor for the king." 1 Cor. 12:13 "For truly by one spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free and we were all made to drink one spirit."

    How can you say only the annointed have spirit?

    I'm surprised you can ask that question, but lets look at what the Bible says and compare it to the Watchtower. Jesus said that you must be born again when He was speaking to Nicodemus.

    "In reply Jesus declared, 'I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.'" John 3:3 (NIV)

    This ultimately speaks of spiritual adoption, becoming the sons and daughters of God. How do you get born again? Compare this verse:

    Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit." -- John 3:5,6 (NIV)

    And what happens when you are born again of the Spirit? The following verse says:

    But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, 5to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons. 6Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, "Abba, Father" -- Galatians 4:4-6 (NIV)

    Therefore you must be born again of the Spirit to enter the Kingdom of God and receive the Holy Spirit. Now who according to the Watchtower who can enter the Kingdom of God? Is it the everyone or only the ones with the heavenly hope?

    It is interesting that the Watchtower sometime this past year (don't know the exact month and year) published an article about the subject of being born again. I would strongly recommend that you find and read that Watchtower article and see what the society says about who can be born again. It is vitally important that you understand the consequences of not being born again because the following verse says:

    8 So those who are in harmony with the flesh cannot please God. 9 However, YOU are in harmony, not with the flesh, but with the spirit, if God’s spirit truly dwells in YOU . But if anyone does not have Christ’s spirit, this one does not belong to him. -- Romans 8:8-9 (NWT)

    So you see, you must be born again to get the Holy Spirit for without it you cannot become the sons and daughters of God because you do not belong to Him.

    Check out this link for more details and find that Watchtower article discussing being born again to see who can be born again. If you believe you can be and / or are born again, good. If you want to ensure that you check all things, find that Watchtower article.

    My fear is that you are going to be like my wife and agree with the Christian teaching until you find that it contradicts the Watchtower, then favor the Watchtower teaching instead. It is interesting to note that the society just published an article concerning the Holy Spirit. What is more interesting is how the Watchtower can teach two opposing things at once. On the one hand (in this article) they can teach that we can be guided by the Holy Spirit, but on the other hand... I will let you read that Watchtower article that talks about being born again. Compare it with the Bible and decide for yourself.

    My conclusions, according to the Watchtower we can certainly be guided by the Spirit when we follow the direction of the spirit directed organization and its faithful and discreet slave. However, we can never believe that for once we can be guided by the Holy Spirit outside of His organization and apart from the faithful and discreet slave.

  • garyneal

    Now I just discovered something real interesting as I reread my post.

    8 So those who are in harmony with the flesh cannot please God. 9 However, YOU are in harmony, not with the flesh, but with the spirit, if God’s spirit truly dwells in YOU . But if anyone does not have Christ’s spirit, this one does not belong to him. -- Romans 8:8-9 (NWT)

    Note that those versus come from Jehovah's Witnesses own Bible. Note how verse 9 speaks of God's spirit first then speaks of Christ's spirit in the same context. What conclusions can one draw from this verse?

  • The Almighty Homer
    The Almighty Homer

    A little information on integrity........

    Integrity is consistency of actions, values, methods, measures, principles, expectations and outcome. As a holistic concept, it judges the quality of a system in terms of its ability to achieve its own goals. A value system's abstraction depth and range of applicable interaction may also function as significant factors in identifying integrity due to their congruence or lack of congruence with empirical observation. A value system may evolve over time while retaining integrity if those who espouse the values account for and resolve inconsistencies.

    Integrity may be seen as the quality of having a sense of honesty and truthfulness in regard to the motivations for one's actions. The term "hypocrisy" is used in contrast to integrity for asserting that one part of a value system demonstrably conflicts with another, and to demand that the parties holding apparently conflicting values account for the discrepancy or change their beliefs to improve internal consistency.

  • Guest with Questions
    Guest with Questions

    garyneal wrote:What is more interesting is how the Watchtower can teach two opposing things at once. On the one hand (in this article) they can teach that we can be guided by the Holy Spirit, but on the other hand...

    I thought maybe I was just tired but I came to the same conclusion. I've been checking the 2003 Watchtower Library and found discrepencies. For a moment I thought that maybe Schipper was correct about every witness having holy spirit, but it depends on the quote.

    As a "Great Crowd" witness I would feel so cheated. Jesus is not their Mediator, they don't have a heavenly calling, they are not even adopted as God's children, can't call Him Abba, won't see Him face to face ever (See Rev 21:3) Abraham, Moses, Isaac, Jacob, David don't have the heavenly calling but someone today for just being a witness does? Because he's a Jehovah's Witness? He just feels it?

    I found this interesting but sad. From the Watchtower 2003 2/15 14

    . Anointed ones "have been given a new birth, not by corruptible, but by incorruptible reproductive seed, through the word of the living and enduring God." (1 Peter 1:23) By his spirit and Word, God implants the "seed" that makes the individual "a new creation," with a heavenly hope. (2 Corinthians 5:17) And Jehovah makes the choice. Anointing "depends, not upon the one wishing nor upon the one running, but upon God." (Romans 9:16) So how can a person be sure that he has the heavenly calling?


    The anointed are sure of their hope. They have been taken into an additional covenant, the Kingdom covenant. Concerning their sharing with Christ, Jesus said: "You are the ones that have stuck with me in my trials; and I make a covenant with you, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom." (Luke 22:28-30) This covenant between Christ and his associate kings remains forever operative.—Revelation 22:5.




    The witness of God’s spirit convinces anointed Christians that they have heavenly prospects. "You received a spirit of adoption as sons," wrote Paul, "by which spirit we cry out: ‘Abba, Father!’ The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children. If, then, we are children, we are also heirs: heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ, provided we suffer together that we may also be glorified together." (Romans 8:15-17) Under the holy spirit’s influence, the spirit, or dominant attitude, of anointed ones impels them to apply to themselves what the Scriptures say about Jehovah’s spiritual children. (1 John 3:2) God’s spirit gives them a sense of sonship toward him and engenders within them a unique hope. (Galatians 4:6, 7) Yes, everlasting earthly life as perfect humans surrounded by family members and friends would be splendid, but that is not their God-given hope. By means of his spirit, God has produced within them such a strong heavenly hope that they are willing to sacrifice all earthly attachments and prospects.—2 Corinthians 5:1-5, 8; 2 Peter 1:13, 14.

    Anointed Christians are certain of their heavenly hope, of their having been taken into the new covenant. Jesus mentioned it when he instituted the Memorial and said: "This cup means the new covenant by virtue of my blood, which is to be poured out in your behalf." (Luke 22:20) The parties to the new covenant are God and anointed ones. (Jeremiah 31:31-34; Hebrews 12:22-24) Jesus is the mediator. Made operative by Christ’s shed blood, the new covenant took out not only from the Jews but also from the nations a people for Jehovah’s name and made them part of Abraham’s "seed." (Galatians 3:26-29; Acts 15:14) This "everlasting covenant" provides for all spiritual Israelites to be resurrected to immortal life in heaven.—Hebrews 13:20.



    The witness of God’s spirit convinces anointed Christians that they have heavenly prospects. "You received a spirit of adoption as sons," wrote Paul, "by which spirit we cry out: ‘Abba, Father!’ The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children. If, then, we are children, we are also heirs: heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ, provided we suffer together that we may also be glorified together." (Romans 8:15-17) Under the holy spirit’s influence, the spirit, or dominant attitude, of anointed ones impels them to apply to themselves what the Scriptures say about Jehovah’s spiritual children. (1 John 3:2) God’s spirit gives them a sense of sonship toward him and engenders within them a unique hope. (Galatians 4:6, 7) Yes, everlasting earthly life as perfect humans surrounded by family members and friends would be splendid, but that is not their God-given hope. By means of his spirit, God has produced within them such a strong heavenly hope that they are willing to sacrifice all earthly attachments and prospects.—2 Corinthians 5:1-5, 8; 2 Peter 1:13, 14.

    Anointed Christians are certain of their heavenly hope, of their having been taken into the new covenant. Jesus mentioned it when he instituted the Memorial and said: "This cup means the new covenant by virtue of my blood, which is to be poured out in your behalf." (Luke 22:20) The parties to the new covenant are God and anointed ones. (Jeremiah 31:31-34; Hebrews 12:22-24) Jesus is the mediator. Made operative by Christ’s shed blood, the new covenant took out not only from the Jews but also from the nations a people for Jehovah’s name and made them part of Abraham’s "seed." (Galatians 3:26-29; Acts 15:14) This "everlasting covenant" provides for all spiritual Israelites to be resurrected to immortal life in heaven.—Hebrews 13:20.

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