I always enjoy hearing/reading a JW mentioning "Pagan" or "Chirstindom" Holidays and realizing that in all their studies, they have never read Romans, LOL !!
Dearest pjschipper...
by AGuest 105 Replies latest jw friends
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OUTLAW
Posting to read thread..
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Alwayshere
Acts 2:16-17 shows 33C.E. was the begining of the last days for the early Christains And the end came in 70 C.E. Colossians 1:23 said the "good news" was preached through out the earth. So Matthew 24 :14 was fullfilled. We are no longer under that command. Jesus did not say it had a greater fullfillment. The watchtower does so they can go on and on with their lies.
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megs
Phillip, Are you able to form an argument without using the Watchtower? Thus far all I have seen from your responses is cut and pasted from the watchtower. I would say that many here are very familiar with the Watchtower, however they are using their own ability to reason in executing their responses to you.
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Guest with Questions
Schipper: Not sure if you read all of your cut and paste from the Watchtower, and not the Bible, but here are some excerpts that struck me.
As the only truly united people on earth
It is not easy to come out of the world, with its easygoing, permissive ways,
getting rid of wrong thoughts, bad habits and self-seeking, loose ways of life
It has required our giving proper recognition to the one organization that Jehovah is using in the earth today
From time to time, there have arisen from among the ranks of Jehovah's people those who, like the original Satan, have adopted an independent, faultfinding attitude
They say that it is sufficient to read the Bible exclusively, either alone or in small groups at home. But, strangely, through such ‘‘Bible reading,' they have reverted right back to the apostate doctrines that commentaries by Christendom's clergy were teaching 100 years ago,
Have you ever belonged to a church? Do you truly feel that the churches are not united? How do you know that?
Do you truly believe that the "world" is so permissive, evil?
Do you truly believe, as the Watchtower claims, that you, Schipper can't possibly read and understand the Bible on your own?
My church has over 400 volunteers. They reach out to the community. Their Alpha programme is extremely successful in bringing new people to Christ. (not to an organization) So don't talk about something you know absolutely nothing about. You are spoonfed this information. Even my my mom (a former hardcore witness) will sometimes kid, "I thought all the churches were empty?"
Schipper I'm not saying this in anger but frustration at the lies the organization tell it's people. You can believe anything you want. Stay a witness, that's your right, but please, I just wish you would read your bible.
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PSacramento
megs,
JW's really can't "thinK" for themselves in reagds to the bible, they don't read it or understand it, they get selected sections that they are told to read by the WT and the WT tells them what they mean.
How are they going to "speak for themselves' when they don't have the tools to do so?
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AGuest
May you have peace!
There was a time, dear one, when speaking as we do today would be considered not only pretentious, but overly familiar and perhaps even vulgar. Taking offense at how one speaks though, seems, to me, kind of, well, asinine… when one knows the one speaking means no offense or harm. My husband speaks very “properly” because he is very well-read (also, he grew in a time and household wher speaking properly was expected). Do I take offense or consider it pretentious or an affectation? Not at all! Why? Because I know him, I love him, and I know he’s genuine. He speaks as it makes him comfortable (I can only imagine how he must have completely exasperated the JWs in his former congregations - ). He’s a man of very few words, however, except when I "engage" him… and so I actually relish whatever he has to say when he does speak.
As for my Lord, of course he is not pretentious. Indeed, nothing could be further from the truth; however, just because our language has “evolved” and become so informal for us (and that really is a fairly "western" phenomenon, which is why many others in the world don't trust "us" so much)… doesn’t mean it has… or should… for him. Indeed, Christ is the same… yesterday AND today… and forever (Hebrews 13:8).... which truth I will discuss with pjschipper, in a moment.
As for the language he speaks… it is not English (c'mon, you cannot seriously believe that English is Christ's first language? Seriously?!). He speaks what I believe is an ancient form of some Hebrew dialect (actually, to the reverse, the ancient Hebrews spoke HIS dialect). That’s not to say he can’t speak English – he can speak every tongue. But when he speaks to me it is in his language. And so, when I translate, it tends to come out kind of formal. Like when you translate Spanish.
Now, regarding the Hebrew “words,” I’m thinking you’re meaning his name, JAHESHUA, yes? If that’s so, I need to let you know that JESUS… is NOT the English rendition of the name of the Holy One of Israel. IF I were to use the English, it would be JOSHUA (pronounced “Yoshua”.) And that’s really how its sounds: “Yah-eh-Shua” with the “eh” being pretty much silent (unless you wanna really throw that whole Jewish loogie thing in there… which I don’t – LOL!).
“JESUS,” however, is WRONG. Sorry, folks…but it is, I cannot lie to you. The name “Jesus,” is the English rendition of the GREEK (and my Lord was never Greek – c’mon, you KNOW this!) name “Ieosus”… which means… “Je is Zeus”… or “God is Zeus.” You see, the name “Zeus” did not just apply to the ancient Greek god: it was the NAME for “the highest god.” So, whether they worshipped a false God… or the True God… the name “Zeus” was used. Thus, they said, “Je (Jah) is Zeus”… or “Ieosus”… or “Je-Sus” (pronounced “Ye-Soos”). Don't believe me? Look... it... up.
Now, some might think, “What’s the big deal? What difference does it make?” For some, none. No biggie. But to ME… if I TRULY love someone, the LEAST I can do is get his name right. I mean, how could I say I truly loved you… if I insisted on calling you, say, “PRanchoCordova” (vs. “PSacramento”). Or if I called “Outlaw” by the name of, say, “Bandit” or “Delinquent.” I mean, I could argue that, hey, they MEAN the same thing, so what’s the big deal? Right? But am I truly respecting you… or dear Outlaw… if I call you or him by a name I choose… rather than the name you and he wish to be called by? Can I say I truly LOVE you… if I don’t even RESPECT you enough to get your name right? I don’t think I can. I can say that I respect you… but that really isn’t the truth, is it?
So, I hope that helps... and I bid you peace!
Your servant and a slave of Christ,
SA
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megs
ROFLMAO PSacramento... As demonstrated directly below your post...
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Alwayshere
pjschipper doesn't want the truth. He is probably one of the GB getting filthy rich from the slaves of the Watchtower Society. Matthew 7:6 says "Do not give what is Holy to Dogs." So I am through with him.
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The Almighty Homer
Religion Like the Pharisees
Matthew 23
Those familiar with the life of Christ know that He did not get along very well with the religious sect of the Pharisees. One interesting thing about this is that when it came to many of the controversial questions of the day, Jesus and the Pharisees were in agreement! Both Jesus and the Pharisees believed in angels, but the sect of the Saducees did not. Also, Jesus and the Pharisees taught the resurrection, but again, the Saducees did not (Matthew 22:23-33). Not surprisingly, the Pharisees really liked it when Jesus put those Saducees in their places!
But that is about all the Pharisees liked about Jesus. Jesus did not care for their religion either. What this means for us, of course, is that we do not want to be either like the Pharisees nor the Saducees when it comes to our worship, beliefs and practices.
Jesus began a long treatment of what was wrong with the Pharisees' religion with the following words:
"The Scribes and Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses; therefore, all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them." (Matthew 23:2,3). Right away, we see something drastically wrong here. When Jesus spoke of the Pharisees having sat themselves down "in the chair of Moses", He was simply saying that when they instruct you from the writings of Moses, listen to and obey those instructions. Just because it is a rascal who is speaking the truth does not mean that is an excuse to reject the truth. During His lifetime, Jesus taught His disciples to obey the Law of Moses. This was God's covenant with them. Soon would come a new covenant that would replace the first one. We are now under the covenant of Christ (Hebrews 8:6-13; 9:15-18; Galatians 3:23-27; 5:1-6).Something else we notice here; the Pharisees expected others to obey the Law but always found reasons as to why they did not have to themselves. Jesus said that "they say and do not." They were great at excuse-making. They were more interested in appearing that they were righteous than in really living righteously. This is why Jesus calls them hypocrites. This is why we want to be sure that our religious life is not like that of the Pharisees!
They Do Deeds To Be Noticed By Men
"But they do their deeds to be noticed by men; for they broaden their phylacteries, and lengthen the tassels of their garments." (Matthew 23:5). Everything was done to attract the approval and attention of others. The approval of God took a back seat. The Pharisees would dress distinctively in garb that would symbolize their righteousness. It was more important that they appeared righteous to others than whether they were really righteous or not. In today's world they would be the ones to carefully watch the opinion polls and then try to do and say those things which would garner them the most respect. They would wear a red ribbon for AIDS awareness. They would be for "gay rights" and deny that Jesus is the only way to the Father. They would seek to be politically correct. They would turn true righteousness on its ear, ridicule those who seek to live by faith, and heap congratulations on one another for their wonderful insight and tremendously good deeds.
In addition to their distinctive dress, the Pharisees loved places of honor at banquets, chief seats in synagogues, respectful greetings such as "Rabbi", "Father" and "Leader". Anything that would tend to exalt them in the eyes of men would be fine with them.
They Block Entrance Into The Kingdom
"But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from men; for you do not enter yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in." (Matthew 23:13). By prescribing their own doctrines, traditions and creeds, the Pharisees were actually hindering others from truly accepting God's rule in their lives. They had formulated their own standards of right and wrong. Much like today, where we are witnessing a casting off of New Testament moral, ethical and doctrinal standards in favor of the standards of men. Again, today's "experts" are doing the same thing; not entering themselves, nor do they permit others to enter "the kingdom of God." How seldom to men and women today appeal to the only sound standard of right and wrong; the word of God.
They Convert Others To The Wrong Side
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel about on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves." (Matthew 23:15). A person's zeal is not the only indicator as to whether he is right with God or not. While we may be sure that a person who is neglectful and disinterested is not right in the sight of God, it is also true that there are people extremely dedicated to false systems, social, religious and otherwise. I once had members of a cult ask me, "Who else do you see traveling all over the world teaching and preaching like us?" Next time I am asked that question, I think I'll turn to this passage and answer, "The Pharisees!" It's not that it is wrong to travel and teach. In fact, that is right. But what is taught must be correct, else we make the same mistake the Pharisees did.
They Lie
"Woe to you, blind guides, who say, 'Whoever swears by the temple, that is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple, he is obligated." (Matthew 23:16). The Pharisees had all sort of tricks to make it appear that they were telling the truth when they were not. They had decided that the gold in the temple was more important than the temple, so they would "swear by the temple" and lie, but they would not "swear by the gold of the temple" and lie because the gold is so precious. So, they would phrase their oaths to make it look like they were swearing by something too holy to lie about. Actually, as Jesus points out, it is always wrong to lie (vss. 17-21).
They Neglect The Weightier Matters
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the Law; justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you ought to have done without neglecting the others." (Matthew 23:23). The Pharisees were not much on justice and mercy and faithfulness to God. You would find them going through even their spice cabinets to be sure they gave a tenth of everything, as the Law required a tenth, but then neglecting developing their hearts and minds so that their motives might be pure. Jesus does not say that their concern for obeying the Law was wrong, but that they should not have left the weightier matters undone. Jesus says they should have done both.
They Are Hypocritical
"Even so you too outwardly appear righteous to men, but inwardly you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness." (Matthew 23:26). This is pretty much a summation of what kind of people the Pharisees had become. They did what they thought was necessary to convince others that they were righteous. This might also well translate into those members of the church today who go through whatever motions they must to satisfy what they think are the minimum requirements of faith, so that people will think pleasing God is at least somewhat important to them. Such a shameful attitude was unacceptable to Christ then, and it still is today. How can one even think that Jesus will be pleased with offering Him the barest leftovers of our lives?
They Reject The Prophets
"Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city." (Matthew 23:34). Jesus referred to how their fathers had rejected and killed the prophets of the Old Testament. The Pharisees during His time honored these same prophets, but Jesus said that they were just like their fathers before them (vss. 29-36). Truth is sometimes not received very well. It wasn't during Jesus' day, it isn't today as well. The outcome of such rejection? "Behold, your house is being left to you desolate" (vs. 38).
