by iknowall558 178 Replies latest watchtower bible
lurk3r
I have only one thing to say to you and your abusive unchristian words.
Matthew 7:5 (New International Version)
5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.
hi salcolton
your reply is just trinitarian rhetoric on Jw usage of proskuneo whereas I quoted the greek lexigon let the reader judge.
Heb. 1:8 and Psalm 45:6, "God is thy throne."
"But with reference to the Son: 'God is your throne forever and ever, and [the] scepter of your kingdom is the scepter of uprightness'" The New World Translation.
In this particularly interesting verse, God is addressing the Son. The Greek construction of Hebrews 1:8 allows the text to be translated in two legitimate ways:
"God is your throne forever and ever....
and
"Thy Throne O God, is forever and ever..."
But because of the Watchtower presupposition that Jesus is not God, they choose the first version, otherwise, the Father would be calling Jesus God and that goes against Jehovah's Witness theology. Yet, most Bibles do not translate it the way the New World Translation does. They choose the other way. Why? Two reasons.
First, Heb. 1:8 is a quote from Psalm 45:6 , which says,
"Thy Throne, O God, is forever and ever; a scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Thy Kingdom" (All Bible quotes are from the NASB).
In fact, the ASV, KJV, NIV, and NKJV all translated it as "Your throne, O God..." The RSV translates it as "Your divine throne endures for ever and ever," "but this is a highly unlikely translation because it requires understanding the Hebrew noun for "throne" in construct state, something extremely unusual when a noun has a pronomial suffix, as this one does...The KJV, NIV, and NASB all take the verse in its plain, straightforward sense, as do the ancient translations..."1
When we look at the Hebrew, we see that there is no grammatical requirement for this translation, though it is considered to be the best translation by most translators. In and of itself, this is not conclusive because the context of this verse in Psalm 45 is dealing with a king which would make one wonder why he would be addressed as God. But, it is not uncommon for NT writers to take a verse in the OT that seemingly deals with one subject and apply it to another. They knew something we didn't. In fact, in Ezekiel 28:12-17 is a section that deals with the fall of the devil. Verse 13 describes how he was in the garden of Eden. Verse 14 says he was the anointed cherub, (v. 15), etc. But the context of this section begins with an address to the king of Tyre (v. 12). Yet, right after Ezekiel is told to write to the King of Tyre he then goes on to describe what the great majority of theologians agree with, a description of the devil's fall. So, we need to look at the context into which the writer of Hebrews put Psalm 45:6 . He addressed it to Jesus. Therefore, Psalm 45 is a Messianic Psalm and must in interpreted in light of the NT, not the other way around.
Nevertheless, the context of this verse follows:
"For to which of the angels did He ever say, "Thou are My son, Today I have begotten Thee"? And again, "I will be a Father to Him, and He shall be a Son to Me"? 6 And when he again brings the first-born into the world, He says, "And let all the angels of God worship Him." 7 And of the angels He says "Who makes His angels winds, and His ministers a flame of fire." 8 But of the Son He says, "Thy Throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom, 9 Thou hast loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; therefore God, Thy God, hath anointed Thee with the oil of gladness above Thy companions. 10 And, "Thou, Lord, in the beginning didst lay the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the works of Thy hands; 11 They will perish, but though remainest...." ( Heb. 1:5-11 ).
To say "God is your throne" doesn't make sense. What does it mean to say, "But to which of the angels did he say, God is your throne." What would that mean? Is God, Jesus' throne? God alone is on His throne and He isn't a throne for anyone else.
Also worth noting here is verse 10: "Thou, Lord, in the beginning didst lay the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the works of Thy hands..." This is a quote from Psalm 102:24-25 which says, "I say, 'O my God, do not take me away in the midst of my days, Thy years are throughout all generations. 25 Of old Thou didst found the earth; And the heavens are the work of Thy hands.'" Clearly, God is the one being addressed in Psalm 102. It is God who laid the foundations of the earth. Yet, in Heb. 1:10 , Jesus is called 'Lord' and is said to be the one who laid the foundation of the earth. This becomes even more interesting when we note that in Isaiah 44:24 it says, "Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, "I, the Lord, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself, And spreading out the earth all alone." If God was laying the foundations of the earth alone, that would mean that either Jesus has to be God, second person of the trinity, who laid the foundation the same as YHWH did, or we have a contradiction in the Bible. Clearly this section of Hebrews is proclaiming that Jesus is God. Therefore, contextually, it is best to translate Heb. 1:8 as, "Thy Throne, O God. . ." and the Father calls Jesus God.
Reniaa, what do you make of this;
Ephesians 4:8 Wherefore he says: “When he ascended on high he carried away captives; he gave gifts [in] men.” 9 Now the expression “he ascended,” what does it mean but that he also descended into the lower regions, that is, the earth? 10 The very one that descended is also the one that ascended far above all the heavens, that he might give fullness to all things.
Seeing as you love denying that Jesus is God, who is the above passage talking about?
Verse 7 will give you a clue;
Now to each one of us undeserved kindness was given according to how the Christ measured out the free gift.
Ok, so it's referring to the Lord Jesus Christ. Cool.
Paul, however, was quoting from Psalm 68:18. Let's have a look at what that says;
18 You have ascended on high;
You have carried away captives;
You have taken gifts in the form of men,
Yes, even the stubborn ones, to reside [among them], O Jah God.
Who is that passage talking about? Oh. Jah God. Could that be...Jehovah?
But surely not? Surely Paul got it wrong. How could a passage about Jehovah be applied to Jesus?
hi boysone honour is not worship
Hi Reniaa
But you haven't explained why the Society translate the same greek word as "worship" when in reference to God, but then translate it "obeisance" when in reference to Jesus?
In John 5 v 23 it says we should honour the Son JUST AS WE HONOUR THE FATHER.
Its quite plain to me that the scripture leaves us in no doubt. If you don't give the same honour to the Son as you give to the Father, then you risk the Father's displeasure.
The word "proskuneo" occurs 55 times in the Watchtower Kingdome Interlinear. Of those 55, 15 are in reference to Jesus with 40 used of others. 27% of the usage is of Jesus and not a single reference is translated as "worship" even though in reference to the devil, demons, idols, etc., they do translate it as worship. If this doesn't demonstrate their bias, then what does?
| Verse | Jesus | God | Demons | dragon, beast, image | Devil | Generic | Idols | Peter | angel |
| Matt. 2:2 | obeisance | ||||||||
| Matt. 2:8 | obeisance | ||||||||
| Matt. 2:11 | obeisance | ||||||||
| Matt. 4:9 | worship | ||||||||
| Matt. 4:10 | worship | ||||||||
| Matt. 8:2 | obeisance | ||||||||
| Matt. 9:18 | obeisance | ||||||||
| Matt. 14:33 | obeisance | ||||||||
| Matt. 15:25 | obeisance | ||||||||
| Matt. 18:26 | obeisance | ||||||||
| Matt. 20:20 | obeisance | ||||||||
| Matt. 28:9 | obeisance | ||||||||
| Matt. 28:17 | obeisance | ||||||||
| Mark 5:6 | obeisance | ||||||||
| Mark 15:19 | obeisance | ||||||||
| Luke 4:7 | worship | ||||||||
| Luke 4:8 | worship | ||||||||
| Luke 24:52 | obeisance | ||||||||
| Verse | Jesus | God | Demons | dragon, beast, image | Devil | Generic | Idols | Peter | angel |
| John 4:20 | worship | ||||||||
| John 4:21 | worship | ||||||||
| John 4:22 | worship | ||||||||
| John 4:23 | worship | ||||||||
| John 4:23 | worship | ||||||||
| John 4:24 | worship | ||||||||
| John 9:38 | obeisance | ||||||||
| John 12:20 | worship | ||||||||
| Acts 7:43 | worship | ||||||||
| Acts 8:27 | worship | ||||||||
| Acts 10:25 | obeisance | ||||||||
| Acts 24:11 | worship | ||||||||
| 1 Cor. 14:25 | worship | ||||||||
| Heb. 1:6 | obeisance | ||||||||
| Heb. 11:21 | worship | ||||||||
| Verse | Jesus | God | Demons | dragon, beast, image | Devil | Generic | Idols | Peter | angel |
| Rev. 3:9 | obeisance | ||||||||
| Rev. 4:10 | worship | ||||||||
| Rev. 5:14 | worship | ||||||||
| Rev. 7:11 | worship | ||||||||
| Rev. 9:20 | worship | ||||||||
| Rev. 11:1 | worship | ||||||||
| Rev. 11:16 | worship | ||||||||
| Rev. 13:4 | worship | ||||||||
| Rev. 13:8 | worship | ||||||||
| Rev. 13:12 | worship | ||||||||
| Rev. 13:15 | worship | ||||||||
| Rev. 14:7 | worship | ||||||||
| Rev. 14:9 | worship | ||||||||
| Rev. 14:11 | worship | ||||||||
| Rev. 15:4 | worship | ||||||||
| Rev. 16:2 | worship | ||||||||
| Rev. 19:4 | worship | ||||||||
| Rev. 19:10 | worship | ||||||||
| Rev. 19:20 | worship | ||||||||
| Rev. 20:4 | worship | ||||||||
| Rev. 22:8 | worship | ||||||||
| Rev. 22:9 | worship |
As you can see, the NWT is very bias in how it translates the word "proskuneo." Whenever it is in reference to Jesus, they absolutely will not let it be translated as worship. Why? Because they erringly deny that Jesus is God in flesh and their Bible reflects their bias. This is not how proper theology is done.
The Watchtower Organization has changed the Bible to suit its needs.
Reniaa, you've got some cheek coming on here and quoting Matthew 7:5.
While I don't condone some of the language that was used in reference to you, you have to admit you're taking the biscuit by coming onto this forum and defending a man-made publishing corporation that rules the lives of millions of people with the iron rod of fear of being disfellowshipped.
Remember, the organisation you obey changes it's doctrines like most people change their cars and then disfellowships those who do not instantly fall into line with their 'new light'. The organisation you obey encourages parents to let their gifts from God - their children - DIE because of a dietary restriction put in place to prevent the stumbling of Hebrew Christians.
The organisation you obey destroys families by pressuring parents to shun children, sisters to shun sisters, grand parents are cut off from grand children none of which is anywhere near the model Christ left for TRUE Christians.
The organisation you obey shuts up the kingdom of heaven before it's adherents by making access to heaven open to 144,000 only. They practice the rejection of Christ's sacrifice and they take a parable and make an elite ruling class out of it.
So, when you talk about hypocrisy, please don't forget to include yourself in that; you're on an apostate website. The people here have been battered and abused by the owners of a bunch of factories and printing presses. The people on here have had their family and friends ripped from their affections. The people on here have lost loved ones to erroneous, fluctuating teachings.
I think it's about time you realised you're not at your auntie's. Please stop defending the people that have caused the need for this site to exist in the first place.
lol password who made you the rule maker?
name me a scripture that Jesus says we shouldn't use Gods name?
You are trying to say the bible changed drastically fom hebrew to greek scriptures that moses allowed to use Gods name freely and quite prolifically somehow was greater blessed than JEsus God's son who wasn't allowed to use Gods name?
Jesus freely quoted Deut 6:4 that says exactly this using YHVH God's personal name.
4 Hear, O Israel: Jehovah our God, is one Jehovah. [ a ] 5 Love Jehovah your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.
29 "The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. [a] 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' [b]
was Jesus just spouting rhetoric that we should ignore?
Reniaa, I'm not setting or suggesting rules; Jesus makes the rules because he's the judge. So.....
Please show me a scripture where Christians are expected to venerate the name Jehovah.
Please show me a scripture where Jesus uttered the name Jehovah.
Please show me a scripture where Jesus said Christians were to pray to Jehovah.
Reniaa, what was the name that was important to 1st C Christians; was it Jesus or was it Jehovah?
Again, look up the following scriptures;
- Miraculous signs evidenced in the name of Jesus (Mark 16:17; Acts 4:30)
- Hated for bearing the name of Jesus (Matt. 10:22; 24:9)
- Hope in the name of Jesus (Matt. 12:21)
- Whoever receives a little child in Jesus name receives Jesus (Matt. 18:5)
- Encouraged to gather together in the name of Jesus (Matt. 18:20)
- Great eternal reward for those who have made great sacrifices for the name of Jesus (Matt. 19:29)
- Evil spirits cast out in the name of Jesus (Mark 9:38-39; Acts 16:18)
- Demons subjected to the name of Jesus (Luke 10:17)
- Address the Father in Jesus name (John 14:13-14; 15:16; 16:23-24)
- The Holy Spirit sent in the name of Jesus (John 14:26)
- Witnesses to the name of Jesus (Acts 1:8)
- Baptised in the name of Jesus (Acts 2:38; 8:16; 10:48)
- Healed in the name of Jesus (Acts 3:6-10)
- Faith in the name of Jesus (Acts 3:16)
- The name of Jesus is the only name that salvation is found in (Acts 4:10-12)
- Threatened by hostile religious authorities not to speak in the name of Jesus (Acts 4:17-18; 5:28, 40)
- The apostles rejoiced at being counted worthy of suffering for the name of Jesus (Acts 5:41)
- The early Christians called upon the name of Jesus (Acts 9:14, 21; 1 Cor. 1:2) and even prayed directly to Jesus (Acts 7:59)
- The name of Jesus bore before gentiles, kings, and the sons of Israel (Acts 9:15)
- Christians suffered for the name of Jesus (Acts 9:16)
- Speak boldly in the name of Jesus (Acts 9:27-28)
- Forgiveness of sins in the name of Jesus (Acts 10:43)
- Christians risk their lives for the name of Jesus (Acts 15:26)
- The name of Jesus magnified and glorified (Acts 19:17; 2 Thess. 1:12)
- Paul was willing to die for the name of Jesus (Acts 21:13)
- Opponents show hostility to the name of Jesus (Acts 26:9)
- Washed, sanctified and justified in the name of Jesus (1 Cor. 6:11)
- The name of Jesus is the name above every name (Eph. 1:21; Phil. 2:9)
- Give thanks for all things in the name of Jesus (Eph. 5:20)
- Whatever we do, do it in the name of Jesus (Col. 3:17)
- Jesus’ name more excellent than that of any angel (Heb. 1:4)
- God’s command is to believe in the name of Jesus (1 John 3:23)
- Persevere, endure, and hold fast to the name of Jesus (Rev. 2:3, 13)
So, which is it? Jesus or Jehovah?
Oh, and you still haven't answered me re. Eph 4 and Ps 68. How can Jesus be Jah God?
