Moses wrote about "shiloh" the promised one and how thru the seed of Abraham "ALL the nations of the earth will be blessed."
I hate the Watchtower but I really still hate the Trinity Jesus is NOT God!
by Witness 007 343 Replies latest jw experiences
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BurnTheShips
Moses wrote about "shiloh" the promised one and how thru the seed of Abraham "ALL the nations of the earth will be blessed."
I stand corrected. Thank you.
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Witness 007
Sorry this was the 2nd stoning a couple chapters later in John 10;31 "AGAIN the Jews picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them:"I have shown you many great miricles from the Father for which of these are you stoning me?" {Jews}.....for balsphemy, because you a mere man claim to be God"....Jesus answered "Is it not written in the Law I have said you are gods? If he called them gods {human judges} to whom the word of God came what about the one the Father set apart as his very own and sent into this world? WHY DO YOU ACCUSE ME OF BALSPHEMY BECAUSE I SAID I WAS GOD'S SON." Here he confronts them about the stoning using his bible reasoning to defend himself as doing nothing wrong.
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BurnTheShips
That text only bolsters the case for the divinity of Christ. If imperfect human judges could be termed "gods" in a sense, how could the Son of God himself not be? John clarifies in 5:18:
For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.
Would you care to interact with some of the information I have posted about the Apostolic Fathers, especially what I quoted from Ignatius upthread? Ignatius was taught by John and was the leader of the church at Antioch. He clearly wrote that Jesus was God. The Gospels and the rest of the NT were written to people that already were a part of a Christian community, and recieved teaching orally. What they write about respecting these Scriptures should be granted a great deal of weight in forming our interpretations of them. Taking the Gospel of John as a whole, it is very plain that John saw Jesus as more than a man, and a son, but a Son, and that undercurrent and tension runs throughout the gospel.
Burn
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real one
Jesus, el YHWH del Antiguo Testamento
Permission to reproduce this article is hereby granted, but only in its entirety, including author's
name and ministry address at the end of the article, and without any alterations.As someone once stated, Jesus of Nazareth is either Lord, liar or lunatic. For those of us who know that the Bible is the inspired word of the living God, we come to a most important verse regarding the Lord Jesus’ identity, which many overlook. Jesus taught:
And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form (John 5:37).
What an amazing statement for those to ponder who are aware of the Old Testament (OT). The reason is because people did hear God’s voice and see his form! How then could Jesus say it was NOT the Father that they heard or have seen! Was Jesus mistaken at John 5:37 or could there be another explanation regarding who was heard and seen as God in OT times?Please ponder the following Scriptures which prove that YHWH was heard in OT times:
Then the LORD came down in the cloud, and spoke to him, and took of the Spirit that was upon him, and placed the same upon the seventy elders; and it happened, when the Spirit rested upon them, that they prophesied, although they never did so again (Num. 11:25).
Yet other Scriptures teach that YHWH was seen in OT times:Did any people ever hear the voice of God speaking out of the midst of the fire, as you have heard, and live? (Dt. 4:33)
And you said: Surely the LORD our God has shown us His glory and His greatness, and we have heard His voice from the midst of the fire. We have seen this day that God speaks with man; yet he still lives. Now therefore, why should we die? For this great fire will consume us; if we hear the voice of the LORD our God anymore, then we shall die. For who is there of all flesh who has heard the voice of the living God speaking from the midst of the fire, as we have, and lived? (Dt. 5:24-26)
According to all you desired of the LORD your God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, nor let me see this great fire anymore, lest I die (Dt. 18:16).
And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: “For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved” (Gen. 32:30).
God was both seen and heard in OT times, yet by Jesus’ authority it was not the Father! Who then was it? Consider also John 1:18:Then Moses went up, also Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, and they saw the God of Israel. And there was under His feet as it were a paved work of sapphire stone, and it was like the very heavens in its clarity. But on the nobles of the children of Israel He did not lay His hand. So they saw God, and they ate and drank (Ex. 24:9).
And Manoah said to his wife, “We shall surely die, because we have seen God!” (Judges 13:22).
So the LORD became angry with Solomon, because his heart had turned from the LORD God of Israel, who had appeared to him twice (1 Kings 11:9).
So I said: “Woe is me, for I am undone! Because I am a man of unclean lips, And I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; For my eyes have seen the King, The LORD of hosts” (Isa. 6:5).
I speak with him face to face, Even plainly, and not in dark sayings; And he sees the form of the LORD. Why then were you not afraid to speak against My servant Moses? (Num. 12:8).
No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father’s side, has made him known.
Jesus and Paul
The Lord Jesus shocked the unbelieving Jews in his day when he identified himself as the YHWH of the OT by identifying himself as the "I am" that appeared to Moses in Ex. 3:13,14. That OT Scripture reads:Moses said to God, "Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me, ‘What is his name?' Then what shall I tell them?" God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.' "
Jesus revealed his identity, as he stated that he himself spoke to Moses at John 8:58:"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"
Then later, the Apostle Paul stated the following:They [the Israelites] were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. They all ate the same spiritual food and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. (1 Cor 10:2-4)
If you would read through the OT, YHWH is shown to be the rock:I will proclaim the name of the LORD. Oh, praise the greatness of our God! He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he. (Deut. 32:3,4)
Comparing the OT With the NT
Another similar kind of enigma for some comes from comparing OT Scriptures to New Testament (NT) Scriptures. Closely compare the following sets of Scriptures to learn more about the true, hidden identity of Jesus of Nazareth:The voice of one crying in the wilderness: Prepare the way of the LORD; Make straight in the desert a highway for our God (Isa. 40:3).
According to Matthew, the prophet Isaiah wrote about John the Baptist, who was to prepare the way for the Lord, or as Isaiah wrote the LORD (YHWH). Yet, it was John who prepared the way for Jesus:In those days John the Baptist came, preaching in the Desert of Judea and saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near.” This is he who was spoken of through the prophet Isaiah: “A voice of one calling in the desert, ‘Prepare the way for the Lord, make straight paths for him’” (Mt. 3:1-3).
I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire (Mt. 3:11).
John prepared the way for Jesus, according to Matthew, but Isaiah says John, who he called the voice, prepared the way for YHWH!Lord of lords
There is more for you to consider. In Dt. 10:17, we read:For the LORD your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality and accepts no bribes (Dt. 10:17).
Note: according to the OT Scripture, YHWH is not only God, but also Lord of lords. Yet in the NT we clearly read that Jesus is Lord of lords:They will make war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will overcome them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings--and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers (Rev. 17:14).
Furthermore, the NT reveals that the King of kings and Lord of lords is God:which God will bring about in his own time--God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords (1 Tim. 6:15).
Who then is the Lord of lords? The OT says YHWH is Lord of lords, but the NT claims the same for Jesus! Can there be two who are Lord of lords?Was YHWH ever pierced?
Next, let’s consider who was pierced. In the NT, we read the following about Jesus:Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water. The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe. These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken,” and, as another scripture says, “They will look on the one they have pierced” (John 19:34-37).
The only Scripture that John could have been referring to when he wrote, “... as another scripture says, ‘They will look on the one they have pierced’ ” is the following one:And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son (Zech 12:10).
YHWH spoke those words through the prophet Zechariah, as is apparent if we would read from Zech. 12:1 down through verse 10. Note: YHWH is speaking and uses the word me in conjunction to being the one that gets pierced. Yet the Apostle John referred to the same Scripture (Zech 12:10) and says that it was fulfilled when Jesus was pierced on the cross by the Roman soldier’s spear! Who was pierced, YHWH or Jesus? Since Jesus is YHWH this puzzle is solved, along with John 5:37.A Stone That Causes Men To Stumble
Another similar problem for some arises when we compare Isa. 8:13,14 to something that the Apostle Peter wrote! The following is the passage from Isaiah:The LORD Almighty is the one you are to regard as holy, he is the one you are to fear, he is the one you are to dread, and he will be a sanctuary; but for both houses of Israel he will be a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall. And for the people of Jerusalem he will be a trap and a snare (8:13,14).
Question: Did Isaiah the prophet say that YHWH will be a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall? Clearly he did. Why then do we read the following about Jesus?Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe, “The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone,” and, “A stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall.” They stumble because they disobey the message--which is also what they were destined for (1 Pet. 2:7,8).
Is YHWH or Jesus a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall? Or why did the Apostle Peter refer to a Scripture that was written about YHWH Almighty and make it apply to Jesus? Are all these contradictions or is Jesus YHWH?All Things Were Created For Whom?
There is yet more to consider. Were all things created for YHWH or Jesus? Ponder this:The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil (Prov. 16:4).
But the Apostle Paul wrote the following about Jesus:For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him (Col. 1:16).
Then we have this passage:So I said: “Do not take me away, O my God, in the midst of my days; your years go on through all generations. In the beginning you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment. Like clothing you will change them and they will be discarded. But you remain the same, and your years will never end” (Psa. 102:24-27).
That, too, is a problem for some when it is compared to the following passage written about Jesus:But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom .... He also says, In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment. You will roll them up like a robe; like a garment they will be changed. But you remain the same, and your years will never end (Heb. 1:8,10-12).
Psa. 102:24-27 is written about the eternal God, but the same Scripture is applied to Jesus in the NT! How can this be unless Jesus is YHWH?First and Last
According to the following, the First and the Last is YHWH, the Almighty:This is what the LORD says--Israel’s King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God (Isa. 44:6).
Yet Jesus called himself the same in the NT:Listen to me, O Jacob, Israel, whom I have called: I am he; I am the first and I am the last (Isa. 48:12).
When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last (Rev. 1:17).
To the angel of the church in Smyrna write: These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again (Rev. 2:8).
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End (Rev. 22:13).
The Savior
Who is the Savior? The OT declares this:Declare what is to be, present it--let them take counsel together. Who foretold this long ago, who declared it from the distant past? Was it not I, the LORD? And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me (Isa. 45:21).
YHWH, the righteous God, is the Savior, according to Isaiah. But the NT reveals the Savior to be Jesus, for He alone has the name in which salvation is found:He is “‘the stone you builders rejected, which has become the capstone.’ Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved (Acts 4:11,12).
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world (1 John 4:14).
Our Refuge
In whom are we to take refuge? Clearly, the OT declares it is to be the Son:Kiss the Son, lest he be angry and you be destroyed in your way, for his wrath can flare up in a moment. Blessed are all who take refuge in him (Psa. 2:12).
Notice: one is blessed and not cursed to take refuge in the Son. Yet the following Scripture declares another problem for all who reject the deity of Christ:This is what the LORD says: “Cursed is the one who trusts in man, who depends on flesh for his strength and whose heart turns away from the LORD. He will be like a bush in the wastelands; he will not see prosperity when it comes. He will dwell in the parched places of the desert, in a salt land where no one lives. But blessed is the man who trusts in the LORD, whose confidence is in him” (Jer. 17:5-7).
Moreover, the Bible is clear to say YHWH is our Refuge:You evildoers frustrate the plans of the poor, but the LORD is their refuge (Psa. 14:6).
The Bible is hopelessly filled with these types of contradictions for all who reject the Trinity and deity of Christ, but for those of us who accept the Scriptures and what they teach about the Lord’s identity there are no problems! Jesus is not the Father, but he is YHWH by nature.Review Questions
- Did the Lord Jesus teach that no one in OT times has ever heard or seen the Father?
- Was Jesus teaching the absolute truth when he taught that in John 5:37?
- Did anyone in the OT Scriptures ever see the form or hear the voice of YHWH?
- Can you name the various people who did?
- Is the Bible free of contradictions?
- How does that truth compare with John 1:18?
- Is YHWH the "I AM" of Exo. 3:13,14?
- Did Jesus identify himself as "I AM" (Jn. 8:58)?
- Is there any other "I AM" that Jesus could have referred to in the OT other than Exo. 3:14?
- Was Christ "the Rock" that accompanied the Israelites in Moses' day?
- Is YHWH shown to be the "Rock" in the OT?
- Can we compare various sets of OT and NT Scriptures to learn the true, hidden identity of Jesus of Nazareth?
- Did Isaiah write that the voice would prepare the way before YHWH?
- Was that same voice identified as John the Baptist in the NT?
- Did John the Baptist prepare the way before Jesus?
- Is Jesus YHWH, but not the Father?
- Is YHWH Lord of lords?
- Is Jesus Lord of lords
- Is Jesus YHWH, but not the Father?
- Was YHWH ever pierced?
- Did the Apostle John apply that same Scripture which teaches that YHWH was pierced and apply it to Jesus?
- Does your understanding of Jesus’ identity allow you to do the same?
- Who is the stone that causes men to stumble?
- All things were created for whom?
- Does Jesus change like part of creation?
- Is the first and the last Almighty (Isa. 44:6)?
- Is Jesus called the first and the last (Rev. 1:17; 2:8)?
- Can there be two who are the first and the last?
- Is YHWH the Savior?
- Is Jesus the Savior?
- Who has the only name is which salvation is found?
- Is YHWH our Refuge?
- Is Jesus your Refuge?
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Witness 007
Yes I will get some early church fathers info. from my computer burntheships but I AM not at home right now so I cant.......of course Jesus was a god if in-perfect humans could be called god's as he reasoned.....I could be called a god myself!!! You could call him a "mighty god" as in Isaiah...but wait why did Isiah say "mighty god" when Yehweh was called Almighty hundreds of times?
[Jesus] Mighty = Strong, dominant, Powerful.
[Jehovah] Almighty= Mightier then all, having no equal, there can be only one Almighty.
Moses was told to serve as "god to Pharoah" Exodus 7;1 since he spoke for GOD and performed miricles...not from his power but thru GOD...even bowing down to Moses was acceptable as Yahwehs rep.
THERE IS ONLY ONE ALMIGHTY GOD.....the bible says it's not Jesus!
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Pahpa
If nothing else, it is encouraging that the trinity controversy still continues after 1500 years of arguing and debating the subject. But we have to be careful, though, how we judge others on the basis of this doctrine. The minute we deny one another a Christian standing we break the counsel "not to judge one another." We take on the role of God....something that is akin to apostasy itself.
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MOG
An inaccurate translation of Exodus 3:13 leads to a faulty understanding of this verse. In numerous Bibles one can read the question: ‘What is his name?’ as in Judges 13:17, when Manoah wanted to know the name (that is, the pronunciation of the name) of the angel who came to meet him. On the other hand, the Israelites asked Moses: ‘How is his name?’ – that is, ‘what does His name mean?’ or ‘what does His fame mean?’
One can verify that in Hebrew the interrogation ‘what is,’ or ‘how is,’ is ‘mâ,’ and ‘who is,’ is ‘mî.’ Thus, there’s a big difference between asking to know a name because one is in ignorance of it (as in Ezra 5:4) and asking the meaning of a name, which one already knows, as in Genesis 32:27 where the angel asks Jacob to remind him of the meaning (He will supplant) of his name, which meaning was already known to him (Genesis 27:36), in order to give him a new one (He will contend – Genesis 32:28).
Thus, when Moses asked God: ‘How is his name?’ God gave the explanation ‘I shall [prove to] be who (or what) I shall [prove to] be’ (èhyèh ashèr èhyèh). Even here, regrettably, numerous translators are influenced by Greek philosophy on The Being as existing that was developed by Plato in some of his works, including ‘Parmenides.’ For example, the Septuagint translated this passage as ‘I am the Being (égô éimi o ôn in Greek), or, ‘I am He who is.’ Yet Aquila's Translation (which is more faithful to Hebrew) translates this sentence as, I shall be: I shall be (ésomai ésomai in Greek).
As you can see from a study on the translation of this sentence, the difficulty results from translators who want to explain this translation by means of their personal beliefs, which are very often influenced by Greek philosophy; otherwise there is no difficulty. For example, one finds the word èhyèh just before Exodus 3:12 and just after Exodus 4:12, 15, and here translators have no problem translating it as ‘I shall [prove to be] be with you.’ Moreover, the Talmud retains this explanation for the meaning of the Name.
A better translation of Exodus 3:13, 14 would then be: Then Moses said to God, ‘Look, I’ll go to the children of Israel and tell them the God of our ancestors has sent me to you, but they’re going to ask, How is his name? What should I tell them?’ And God told Moses, ‘I shall [prove to] be what I shall [prove to] be! Just tell the children of Israel that I shall [prove to] be has sent you -
reniaa
Interesting debate,
let me throw this scripture into the works :)
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GOD'S WORD® Translation(©1995) .......................................................
A psalm by David. The LORD said to my Lord, "Sit in the highest position in heaven until I make your enemies your footstool."
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Jewish Publication Society Tanakh .......................................................
A Psalm of David. The LORD saith unto my lord: 'Sit thou at My right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.'
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Webster's Bible Translation .......................................................
A Psalm of David. The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thy enemies thy footstool.
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World English Bible .......................................................
Yahweh says to my Lord, "Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool for your feet."and then in mathew
Matthew 26:64 Jesus said to him, "You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN."
Mark 16:19 So then, when the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God.
Call me mad but this describes 2 separate beings before and after even physically separating them. when you sit at the right hand you are separate. It does seem mad that one part of a person can offer another part of same person a position of power in a conversation, it only makes sense if we are talking of 2 separate entities having a conversation.
Some say earlier we can't understand God so we must exept the trinity, it's a mystery! but that doesn't take into account the trinity is fully from men's ideas, so in accepting it you are in fact just accepting a man's opinion of God, 3 monks I think I read earlier?
And this scripture too continues the separateness theme but also if all 3 are equal why would it say one part was a little lower?
<< Psalm 8:5 >>
New American Standard Bible(©1995)
Yet You have made him a little lower than God, And You crown him with glory and majesty!
For thou hast made him but little lower than God, and crownest him with glory and honour.GOD'S WORD® Translation(©1995)
You have made him a little lower than yourself. You have crowned him with glory and honor.There are so many scriptures that conflict with the trinity, I think it's easy for anyone to come to their own viewpoint on it if they know enough of the bible. Just because trinity's a tradition viewpoint doesn't mean we have to adopt it even if we aren't JW's, I think it's been proven adequately that Christians originally didn't believe in the trinity and it was a later adoption so you'd be following first/second century christian examples not JW's in this case (who adopted it from these earlier examples).
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MOG
reniaa- Actually more people make a serious mistake with the trinity belief because when they start arguing its always in reference in DUET, where they would have a better argument (at best), its when they add the additional 3rd person (holy spirit) that its crumbles at their feet.