Opinion peice on Athiests

by SickofLies 203 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  hillary_step

  Burn the ships,

  So oft in theologic wars,
  The disputants, I ween,
  Rail on in utter ignorance
  Of what each other mean,
  And prate about an Elephant
  Not one of them has seen!

  I am not sure that the conclusion of this poem is making the point that you actually hoped it would, after all a person speaking in "utter ignorance" of things that "not one of them has seen" is actually an atheistic stance.

  You seem have taken the viewpoint that all religion is an attempt at indentifying an unseen creative, some religious definitions being more advanced than others, but all trying to describe the same thing. Do I have this right?

  If so, might I ask what motivates a person or group to attempt to make these definitions? Is it based on some sort of evidence, or a visceral reaction? Or what?

  HS
• 

  BurnTheShips

  I am not sure that the conclusion of this poem is making the point that you actually hoped it would,

  Hi hillary_step,

  Its open to interpretation! I knew it could be taken the way you mention when I posted it. The fact is the men are blind. They have felt the elephant, but can not see him.

  If so, might I ask what motivates a person or group to attempt to make these definitions? Is it based on some sort of evidence, or a visceral reaction? Or what?

  Both.

  Either or.

  And neither.

  Depends on the specific instance.

  Cheers.

  Burn.
• 

  BurnTheShips

  You seem have taken the viewpoint that all religion is an attempt at indentifying an unseen creative, some religious definitions being more advanced than others, but all trying to describe the same thing. Do I have this right?

  Hmmmm.

  I think I can agree with that.

  Yes.

  Burn.
• 

  BurnTheShips

  FunkyDerek,

  They are all various incarnations of the war god who became the god of the Jews and then in somewhat altered forms

  I don't think you are understanding me.
  But I don't think you want to understand me.
  We are not talking about a tribal war god here, but something altogether different.

  Burn
• 

  funkyderek

  BurnTheShips:

  I don't think you are understanding me.

  Maybe not. I thought I did though. You seemed to be saying that the names "God, Jehovah, Yahweh, Jesus, Allah, etc [...] are all trying to refer to the same thing". In fact, you seemed so much to be saying it that the above is an exact quote of what you wrote. I agreed that those are all terms that refer to the same (imaginary) entity. (Had you included Zeus or Vishnu in your list, I would have disagreed. Perhaps that's relevant.)

  But I don't think you want to understand me.

  Perhaps it is you who does not wish to be understood.

  We are not talking about a tribal war god here, but something altogether different.

  You are talking about a tribal war god. You just believe that he's the one true god and therefore all other false gods are just attempts at describing the true god. Or have I misunderstood again?
• 

  BurnTheShips

  http://www.theage.com.au/news/book-r...341383277.html
  http://www.godandscience.org/apologe...delusion1.html
  http://www.godandscience.org/apologe...delusion2.html
  http://arn.org/docs/williams/pw_dawkinsfallacies.htmhttp://www.faithandthecity.org/issue...Delusion.shtml
  http://www.skepticalchristian.com/br_goddelusion.htm
  http://www.skepticalchristian.com/r_dawkins.htm
  http://www.christianitytoday.com/bc/2007/002/1.21.html
  
  Dawkins is a genius of a biologist, but he is clearly out of his depth as a philosopher or theologian.

  Burn
• 

  kwintestal

  Thats why there are so many Atheist hospitals and charities!!

  I would say this is because of the Atheist's lack of organization. I recently read, although I can't remember for sure where but it may be in Sam Harris' Letter to a Christian Nation a study that was done where they found that most "charitable" deeds and donations done by religious folks are done to directly support the church. Can you dispute that BTS? If that is the case, that would punch quite a hole in your theory.

  Kwin
• 

  BurnTheShips

  Can you dispute that BTS? If that is the case, that would punch quite a hole in your theory.

  kwintestal, I think I can dispute it.

  Please read the page I posted in above, it is a study by the University of Chicago, please notice that it is a study and not a theory.it addresses acts of altruism. The study finds:

  Americans on average give selflessly of themselves at least 109 times a year, with religiousness being the strongest determinant of how often people reach out to help, according to a study by the National Opinion Research Center at the University of Chicago.

  In the first national survey of altruism and empathy ever conducted, NORC found that while people who never attend religious services perform on average 96 acts of helping others, people who attended services weekly and take part in other religious activities report performing 128 acts of kindness.

  The study asked about 15 different acts of altruism, such as talking with someone who is depressed, helping with housework, giving up a seat to a stranger, giving money to a charity, volunteering, helping someone find a job, or helping in another way, such as lending money. The connection between religious observance and charitable behavior was consistent across religious groups in the study, “Altruism in Contemporary America: A Report from the National Altruism Study.”

  and

  Even secular charities benefit more from donors who have a religious faith than they do from secular donors. Religious people are 10 percent more likely to give to secular causes than secular people, he said.

  This despite the fact that they are giving to religious charities as well!

  
  Burn
• 

  nvrgnbk

  Burn the ships, if you're promoting some sort of spirituality, not to be confused with a belief in the supernatural, many atheists are already there.

  It's the concept of imaginary entities that most atheists find intellectually offensive.

  Atheists readily admit that there is much that is not understood about our Universe.
• 

  BurnTheShips

  The people on this site that defend Christianity are making sure that groups like the JW's are able to survive because they defend making statements based on faith and attack those who criticize religion. I encourage all you latent former JW's still hanging on to some remnant of religion to contemplate this and take the bold step to realize that it was not just a few incidental doctrines that the JW's were wrong about, but the whole concept of god itself.

  I question your premise that believers make it easier for the Tower to florish. When I was a dub, the easiest converts were the ones that did not have a strong religious formation and faith to begin with.

  Unfortunately, freedom requires that we have to accept some things we do not like. Just like freedom of speech means we have to tolerate people saying things we do not agree with and freedom of assembly means we have to tolerate and protect the right of people to meet that we do not agree with, freedom of religion means we have to tolerate groups such as the JWs. Those negatives are the price that comes with the territory. The best way to deal with them is the way we are doing on the Internet, by showing their internal contradictions and secret doings. As for the "bold step" you propose, some of us have taken a "bold step" also, we have decided that the abusiveness and falsehoods perpetrated by the leaders of the Tower were not God's fault, and that we would not lose our faith in Him.

  Contact me through a personal message and I will tell you how you can make a difference by helping to create an environment where groups like the one we escaped from cannot form again.

  Why the personal message, is it something that cannot be posted publically? I am interested too, but not in anything which deprives others of their freedoms.

  Together we can make a difference, together we can make the world a better place.

  We can certainly try,

  Burn.