HELP! Trying to convince my parents I am going to meetings!

by stillAwitness 106 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Finally-Free

  Auldsoul:
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  nelly136

  i lied my arse off while i was extricating myself from the bowels of the jwgrip until there came a point when i was ready to face the fallout, i could have continued doing it for longer than i did, i cant judge anyone else for doing the same.
• 

  AuldSoul

  LittleToe: I simply don't understand why anyone who has left the cult would lambast someone who is in the process of disengaging themselves physically, mentally and emotionally.

  I didn't lambast her for that. I lambasted her for refusing to even listen (at the outset) to any advice that did not include lying and dishonesty. That refusal has nothing whatsoever to do with her departure from JWs.

  ...disagree?

  If not, then please understand that her attempt to get advice on how to be dishonest pricked me pretty deeply because that is exactly what my father (a local PO) among others told me apostates are all about. I refuse (in the absolute sense) to allow lurkers to get the impression that apostates are unethical louts who are sneaky and underhanded in their dealings with other people, persons who seek the easy way out through deceit to do things that they would otherwise get disfellowshipped for.

  Some apostates are unethical. That is true of all segments of humanity, even among JWs (possibly to a higher degree among JWs than elsewhere).

  I didn't say I would judge her adversely for doing so. In fact, up until she tried to suggest that it was somehow unwarranted or unfair to call her choice lying and deception I retained respect for her, as a person, while respectfully disagreeing with her choice. I repeatedly said it was her choice, but did not want her to be self-deceptive as to what her choice constituted (or how it may affect her self-image in the long term).

  So, please separate in your mind the fact that she is leaving from what she asked for help with. I have done so and replied accordingly. Many other posters on this thread separated those two into distinct categories, as well.

  mkr#### told the elders in his KH he was never baptized. I thought that was as funny as anything I'd ever heard. But I would never pretend to him that it was anything but lying. He knew it was lying; he didn't pretend with himself either. Therefore, I still have respect for him.

  Can you really not understand that distinction? As you said recently, I am not long out. I have not forgotten. I know the struggle I had. I know the choices I made and why I made them. I know the pride I feel at how I chose to handle the situation and the shame I would have felt if I chose the course she is choosing. But she isn't just choosing the course of deception (and asking for help on how to better deceive) she is choosing to pretend to herself it isn't really deception at all.

  Bullshit. I'll lambast anyone who tries to pull that crap in my presence; I have done so many times prior to ever contemplating leaving JWs. If you are choosing dishonesty at least have integrity enough to admit that fact to yourself.

  If she is going to be encouraged in that course those doing the encouraging had best be honorable enough to at least warn her of the potentially devastating kickbacks on the other end of the path. How sad it would be if she hangs onto her family for a few months only to irreparably lose them when they discover her deception, if they might choose differently were she simply silent, or straightforward with them.

  The path she is choosing is unlikely to earn her respect from anyone (including herself), least of all her family members.

  ...disagree? If you can explain why, I'll have learned something new today. If you agree, shouldn't someone choosing that path know up front the likely end? Especially if the person asks advice from those who know the likely end?

  Respectfully,
  AuldSoul
• 

  daniel-p

  *daniel-p grabs his popcorn*
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  LittleToe

  AS:Before I begin I should state for the record I neither applaud her methods, nor particularly like her online persona. That having been said, I'm going to defend her to the hilt on this one, because I think that perspective needs articulating beyond the barroom brawl environment of myspace.

  I didn't lambast her for that.

  I didn't particularly see you lambasting anyone. I never directed my comments at any individual. Sounds like you've got a burr up your ass about this topic, though.

  I lambasted her for refusing to even listen (at the outset) to any advice that did not include lying and dishonesty. That refusal has nothing whatsoever to do with her departure from JWs.

  ...disagree?

  Yup. I disagree. Her conduct (including lying, deception and dishonesty) has everything to do with her departure.

  If not, then please understand that her attempt to get advice on how to be dishonest pricked me pretty deeply because that is exactly what my father (a local PO) among others told me apostates are all about.

  So you've personalised it, rather than empathise with her perspective before offering advice? Erm, that would be borderline judgementalism. How's the view from up on that mountaintop?

  So, please separate in your mind the fact that she is leaving from what she asked for help with. I have done so and replied accordingly.

  Ermm, no. I don't want to, and so I shant. I will "separate in [my] mind" anything and everything I want to without direction from a third party, thanks very much. Life is messy, and can rarely but put into neat little boxes. If her parents weren't still in a cult she would be unlikely to be going to such extremes to defend a perception.

  The path she is choosing is unlikely to earn her respect from anyone (including herself), least of all her family members.

  ...disagree?

  I agree, but so what? We all do things that are unlikely to earn respect. Maybe she's too busy attempting to survive in a hostile emotional environment to give excessive weight to future potential [dis]respect. Lets be honest here, her parents are unlikely to have that much respect for her, period. It aint gonna compound it an awful lot by adding another untruth, and the statistics are against them joining her as an exJW at a later date and opening their arms to her. Meanwhile she buys herself a little more time to sort out the mess of spaghetti that is in her head. Sometimes you just have to look after numero uno and let the chips lay where they fall.

  We all wear masks of one description or another. Some of us use overt lies, others are blithely unaware of the fact. Her methods aren't my methods, as well you know, but I can understand a little of where she's coming from.

  ~shoots Daniel a beer to go with the popcorn~
• 

  penny2

  StillA, hope you're OK. Hope you get the opportunity to tell your parents about your situation when you're ready. Hope you don't have a JC sprung on you before you're emotionally ready. Treasure the relationship with your brother.

  penny2
• 

  AuldSoul

  LittleToe: Lets be honest here, her parents are unlikely to have that much respect for her, period. It aint gonna compound it an awful lot by adding another untruth, and the statistics are against them joining her as an exJW at a later date and opening their arms to her.

  I respectfully disagree. To the hilt. They may follow the rules and cut her off but retain respect for her if she does not lie to them. There is next to no chance at all that they will retain respect for her at all if she lies to them.

  LittleToe: Meanwhile she buys herself a little more time to sort out the mess of spaghetti that is in her head.

  I respectfully disagree, again. Lying and deceit does not buy her anything that silence will not also buy.

  LittleToe: So you've personalised it, rather than empathise with her perspective before offering advice? Erm, that would be borderline judgementalism. How's the view from up on that mountaintop?

  Hey, LittleToe, we are ALL humans here, aren't we? She asked the posters here for advice on how to deceive and lie more effectively. How such a request is answered reflects on every poster here, personally, including me.

  Her perspective is severely warped by the current spaghetti-like state of her mind and those who see the forest in such situations are honor-bound (according to my personal ethos, which you may freely not share at your pleasure) to explain to her clearly and directly where the chips are most likely to fall as a result of retaining her current perspective. If seeing the forest is what you mean by the view from the mountaintop, good call on your part. Do I have no duty to warn someone who looks up and asks for guidance about potential pitfalls that I can clearly see right in their path?

  Her ingracious attitude toward the perspectives of others who are not currently suffering so much from a spaghetti-like frame of mind indicates to me that she genuinely only wishes to consider one viewpoint in any detail: her own. I see no reason for me to position myself as a tutor in the art of deception, nor do I see any reason for me to let such a perception as could be created about this place stand unchallenged publicly.

  I didn't think I had lambasted her, either, for what it is worth. The burr I have up my ass is that her request positions the JWD board awkwardly as only being able to meet her request if we are willing to encourage dishonesty. A thread like that—left unchallenged—could be very useful to "prove" to the aposta-curious what apostates are really like.

  From the tone of your posts, she apparently has zero responsibility to concern herself with anyone but herself, while everyone else has a duty toward her of being nothing but supportive of her choices—however stupid or short-sighted we (who have been there) may know them to be. Why even ask us for advice if she intends to so restrict what she is willing to even give ear to?

  Her request for "HELP!" was quickly belied by her post. She doesn't want help. She wants people to encourage her and bolster her confidence that wrong is right and right is wrong. She is ethically lost and doesn't want to be found, and she wants our supportive words to tickle her eyeballs. At best that is how I see her request.

  In my opinion, she has a very dim view of the ethics of the people who post here (including me). And she proved it with this request. Just because I choose not pander to someone else's perspective/frame of mind doesn't mean I don't consider their perspective/frame of mind. Principle still has a place in society, in my opinion. No one need share mine, but no one will take mine away either, or request that I betray it without getting a resolute answer.

  The Celts had virtues. Are you familiar with them? I accorded her respect, I answered her request hospitably while noting where her request conflicted with my personal principle and why it conflicted, and I even warned her of the probable outcomes. I think others, in their own way, have sought to do the same for her on this thread.

  I have no idea what a "MySpace War" is so the analogy is completely lost on me. If you are referring to the veiled insults and challenges to her authenticity, it appalls me. If you mean something else, I would need a better explanation to determine whether I have been engaged in that type of conflict.

  Once she asks a favor of a public forum she no longer has any control of how her request will be received by the participants in that public forum. Had she posted this request in a private area, such as "Private Discussion and Support" I would have either refrained from responding or sent my comments to her via PM. She posted in "Friends", a public area available even to unregistered lurkers, and I will not have them think I support or even condone such lies and deceit.

  That is the burr she thoughtlessly put up my ass.

  Respectfully,
  AuldSoul

  *throws a mustard-covered giant soft pretzel at daniel-p, which he catches without messing his shirt*
• 

  Jourles

  Heh, I remember my folks wanting to come visit my hall when I first moved away from them. I think they did it more or less to check up on me and to see if I was going to the meetings regularly(my mom would ask the elders to see how I was doing). There was no way I could have pulled a 'fade' routine with them.
• 

  OnTheWayOut

  Minimus said:

  Just re-read all her threads. They don't make sense. .......She supposedly lives with a man, her boyfriend, the
  parents have no clue, the elders in the new Hall have her number, leave messages,she's lying to everyone all
  the time, the Secretary must be having fits holding onto her slips for keeping regular after 7 months
  (as Blondie points out in the last thread),.....it's ridiculous.

  Stilla, I did what he asked. Your life is in turmoil, but I don't see such harsh claims.

  Min, people will sometimes bury the story in superflous information or add false information
  in order to conceal their true identity. Stilla is a typical ex-cultist from an ex-cultist family.
  Different families react to situations differently, and many BOE are clueless and don't do
  what they should. My current BOE and CO are totally mishandling my case, and while
  moving away is not an option, I am pretty sure I could get my records lost in the shuffle and
  would only have problems with the family, not the elders, if I did that.

  Also, Min. Many family members could put on blinders so that they don't have to OUT a
  dearly loved daughter as I am sure Stilla is. They might know the truth about a situation, but
  as long as it is not confirmed, they are happy.

  Stilla, I would not add any lies to family, but cong. elders are different. Find a way to duck
  family questions until you are resolved as to how to handle this.
• 

  AuldSoul

  LittleToe: Yup. I disagree. Her conduct (including lying, deception and dishonesty) has everything to do with her departure.

  How do you know it is a new phenomenon with her? Every request she has made has involved some form request for help with lying or deception. What makes you think it is only her departure that makes her so desirous of help with lying?

  She doesn't strike me as a stupid person, and it doesn't take much intelligence to lie. I don't understand why she needs so much help learning how to lie. Can you explain that for me, from your perspective?

  Even if the request for help lying have to do with her departure, in my opinion the preemptive rejection of advice toward anything else has nothing to do with her departure. Which is what I asked if you agree with. It has everything to do with a basic lack of respect for the other posters here. She doesn't even dignify the people she asks for help.