by stillAwitness 106 Replies latest jw friends
I don't understand why she needs so much help learning how to lie. Can you explain that for me, from your perspective?
We all need moral support - even for an action we've already decided, for one reason or another, must be done. (And even for an action that is not "moral" per se).
AS:
I respectfully disagree.
That's fine bro. It's your perogative and mine. We don't need to always agree
From the tone of your posts, she apparently has zero responsibility to concern herself with anyone but herself...
I find it interesting to hear you read that into my reflections. It's evident that she's not the only one being misunderstood
Her request for "HELP!" was quickly belied by her post. She doesn't want help. She wants people to encourage her and bolster her confidence that wrong is right and right is wrong.
And that's not cricket?? Most people do that from time to time.
In my opinion, she has a very dim view of the ethics of the people who post here (including me).
Interesting observation. I would never have made such an assumption. I prefer to err on the side of caution regarding what motives I impute to others.
The Celts had virtues. Are you familiar with them?
Ermmm, lemmee think about that one and get back to you...
I accorded her respect, I answered her request hospitably while noting where her request conflicted with my personal principle and why it conflicted, and I even warned her of the probable outcomes.
Did I ever challenge that, other than in your perception of the tone of my generalised posts?
I have no idea what a "MySpace War" is so the analogy is completely lost on me.
You may need to read some of the earlier comments on the thread.
How do you know it is a new phenomenon with her?
I'll grant you that she may well have been a pathological liar while a JW but I have no evidence for such a hypothesis, and neither have you...
Every request she has made has involved some form request for help with lying or deception.
Every request? Are we using hyperbole to make our point??
She doesn't strike me as a stupid person, and it doesn't take much intelligence to lie. I don't understand why she needs so much help learning how to lie. Can you explain that for me, from your perspective?
Sure - its nothing I wouldn't say to her face. I don't think she's the brightest candle on the cake.
Even if the request for help lying have to do with her departure, in my opinion the preemptive rejection of advice toward anything else has nothing to do with her departure. Which is what I asked if you agree with. It has everything to do with a basic lack of respect for the other posters here. She doesn't even dignify the people she asks for help.
I honestly don't think she's analysing this from the level of how much respect she is according to other posters. To be honest, very few people I've met really think that way, I certainly know that I don't. That being the case I would have to suggest that you may be projecting your opinion and standards onto her. I concede that I could be entirely wrong, but I offer that for your consideration.
Daniel:
I agree, and while in normal circumstances we might not be too keen to support such a course, sometimes there are extenuating circumstances. Sometimes in life such circumstances have nothing to do with a cult, but IMHO when dealing with cults they may well have.
As a parent, all I want for my children is happiness. All I want from them is honesty, even if it's the worst, most terrible news. I understand LT's comments about the difficulties of extricating oneself from the cult - most of us have been there. Arguably the 'slow fade' which so many are doing is a form of dishonesty but there are degrees.
I'm not going to post here what I truly think of Stilla but I will say that I'm trying hard not to judge her.
Nic:
As a parent, all I want for my children is happiness. All I want from them is honesty, even if it's the worst, most terrible news.
I agree, though sometimes we don't get what we want. Parents lie to children and children to parents all the time. I would suggest that is why it is such a precious commodity.
Arguably the 'slow fade' which so many are doing is a form of dishonesty but there are degrees.
And yet a lie is a lie, right? At what point does it become deplorable? When it causes hurt? If so then the kind of action that Stilla and other faders are engaged in is stalling hurt - their own and that of those they love.
Is it a well thought out strategy for the long-term? Probably not, though each case is individual, and it sometimes seems to buy enough time for loved ones to see the light, too. Unfortunately in the case in hand that doesn't appear to be the objective. It appears to be merely a tactical action to spare personal grief.
I'm not going to post here what I truly think of Stilla but I will say that I'm trying hard not to judge her.
Is candor a form of honesty, or can it be misplaced?
AuldSoul: That is the burr she thoughtlessly put up my ass.
Ouch!!! Is'nt that illegal in Georgia??? LOL....
I know I am very late replying to this thread but would like to give a take on this that I didn't see addressed. .
As far as Stilla there are a few things to consider:
Many people complained she did not want honesty but was looking for a way to deceive her parents. As the daughter of an elder, and 2 brothers who were never babtized, the pressure is intense. The males in our house were free to anounce that they would no longer be attending meetings and that was accepted. Myself as the babtized daughter did not have this option.
When one of my brothers finally announced this and was subsequently caught smoking by some JW, my mother proceeded to have a nervous breakdown. It was so bad, I had to call my father from work....an hours drive from down town without traffic. We did not know what to do as kids. She laid up in her bedroom ranting.
So as a daughter watching this, calling my Father, etc., I knew I could not put my parents through this pain again. I had to figure out how to do my fade little by little..Lie by Lie.
I was the great white hope after my 2 younger brothers anounced their freedom. It left me with a terrible load to carry, not one that I wanted, but one I felt as the beloved daughter had to carry, and maintain.
Now all of you know as witnesses... you eventually understand it is a belief system based on denial and lies. As members you ignored those lies, continued to serve, and fianlly got out, because you could no longer tolerate it. But you did it on your own terms.
How in the world is this denial any different than what Stilla is asking for help with? She is trying to avoid causing pain to her parents, herself, and her brother. She is buying time. She is buying breathing room.
Do I recommend she continue? No, because you can carry this on for years, and then children come along, and you buy for them, and then for yourself again, ...and in the end you have wasted lives.
Do I understand why she is asking for help and what for? ......With all my heart I understand.
Stlla can set me straight if I am wrong, but I wish her the best.
r.
As a parent, all I want for my children is happiness. All I want from them is honesty
...reading this thread with interest - but I have to disagree with the above statement because all parents, many parents, might say they want only happiness for their child and honesty from them, but act very differently when that happiness or honesty is contrary to their own ideals or beliefs as to what happiness and honesty are.
Happens all the time. Parents who would rather believe their child is a liar than believe a molestation or rape story(honesty); parents who would rather believe their child is apostate rather than honest; parents who cut their kids out of their lives because marrying outside their religion or culture is against their idea of happiness........the words are great but the actions speak volumes and I think that's why so many kids are fearful of being really honest and open with their parents. sammieswife.
I like to think Little Toe and the others either from PM or who have posted for probably being one of the most intelligent, straight-forward, ex Jw's I have met on this board. I spoke with my brother on this matter and I had already settled it. I think this board has me looking differently now at its purpose and I prefer to speak with member friends privately from now on, which is a shame because 2 former lurkers PM'ed who are both full-time college students and are going through the same situation and asked me who they should go to for advice because after seeing the harshness and hypocritcal hearts in this particular thread they have chosen to not post their stories. Good job.
And to those that claim that "oh, parents want you to just be honest with them" They'll respect you more and blah blah blah, Well I can give you plenty of numbers to call from kids my age who went up and told their parents everything. (not being at meetings, no service, deciding to just go to school and live a normal life) who turned around and told the elders which caused a few I know to be D'F and 1 of my good friends "L" to be kicked out of her house recently and thank god we were able to find her a 1 bedroom flat cheap enough that she could pay her rent (but as of now had to drop out of school and from the looks of things won't be able to go back for at least a year) Everyone's situation is tottaly different. And I think that whole "well I was 100% honest with my family and I paid my way through school, walking through 3 feet of snow every morning and there were no computers or cell phones in my day blah blah yakkity yak" is so tired. My friend is depressed, tired from working 10 hour days and has no idea how she's ever gonna get back in school (her aid only paid for books and according to the governement her parents made to much to get anymore) I sent her a link to this thread and she laughed. She said "Honey, give any one of them my number and I'll tell them exactly what it cost me to be Lil Miss Sunshine to my folks, when finally decided to tell them I did not want to attend meetings or service anymore. Honesty, my ass"
And thus reality meets ethics...
http://www.mahidol.ac.th/budsir/Toward/5_approaching_3.htm
Stilla:While its one thing to "bend the rules" of decent behaviour, with the quandry of whether or not the end justifies the means, it's another to revel in such success. Its an extreme action in the face of extreme odds. Methinks that a few here wonder about your moral fibre, outwith the given scenario with your family. I guess that's for you to prove, or not, as the case may be.
Good luck
