Issuing a Challenge to Atheists and Unbelievers

by The wanderer 149 Replies latest jw friends

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    I couldn't agree more, and I suspect that you would agree that you don't consistently apply such methods yourself?

    I know fine well what I've experienced in life. While my interpretation of such things might be brought into question you cannot contest the experiences themselves as you weren't there. Actually you also can't contest them, period, because I refuse to post them on a webboard.

    I'll just take one of your examples and pick it apart. Communicating with the dead. You evidently haven't done this, but appear to preclude the possibility, notwithstanding the development of science which may eventually unlock such secrets if they are truly possible. I openly acknowledge the possibility that it may all be a crock, but it can currently be proven neither for nor against.

    At best your example only highlights that Houdini had developed beyond mere superstitious belief. There's no evidence that Doyle hadn't also, other than you ahving adjudged him by a standard that places all the "supernatural" in the category of quackery.

    I can't entirely blame ya. I've seen some shyte that I wouldn't have believed had I not experienced it first hand. In my own case I interpret this using theological terminology, for personal reasons that are related to the whole experience. To another it might be interpreted differently.

  • TopHat
    TopHat
    As the old adage goes, the more you learn, the more you realise how little you know.

    Does that mean, what we learn today goes out the window with what we learn tomorrow?

  • skeptic2
    skeptic2

    I couldn't agree more, and I suspect that you would agree that you don't consistently apply such methods yourself?

    I assume on the balance of probability that I don't, but being aware of the possibility that I don't probably reduces the chance of it occurring. Should anyone point out that I haven't, I pride myself on taking a step back and reconsidering.

    I know fine well what I've experienced in life. While my interpretation of such things might be brought into question you cannot contest the experiences themselves as you weren't there. Actually you also can't contest them, period, because I refuse to post them on a webboard.

    I'm not sure how this relates to me pointing out that possessing the ability to think critically does not mean that it is employed in all situations.

    I'll just take one of your examples and pick it apart. Communicating with the dead. You evidently haven't done this, but appear to preclude the possibility, notwithstanding the development of science which may eventually unlock such secrets if they are truly possible. I openly acknowledge the possibility that it may all be a crock, but it can currently be proven neither for nor against.

    I'm sorry you are upset, please believe I wasn't making a personal attack on you, merely pointing out that the logic you employed did not imply (what I assumed was) the intended conclusion.

    The experiences that Sir Arthur Conan Doyle considered evidence for communication with the dead were no different to the parlor tricks that Houdini knew were employed during seances. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle did not believe in communicating with the dead because of the evidence, because Houdini could explain all the evidence more simply, Sir Arthur believed in it because he wanted to.

    When Houdini staged demonstrations for Sir Athur, he would not show him how the tricks were performed, but would inform him in no uncertain terms that what he was seeing was trickery and not paranormal. Sir Athur's response? He believed that all Houdini did not realise it himself, he must possess paranormal abilities. He refused to accept the confession of the person tricking him. Yet this is the person we know could at least simulate critical thinking in his character Sherlock Holmes.

    When I discovered this I thought it an interesting point, which is why I mentioned it in my post to you.

    This does not prove, and I did not say, that communicating with the dead is not possible. Just that what Sir Athur Conan Doyle considered evidence was nothing of the sort.

    At best your example only highlights that Houdini had developed beyond mere superstitious belief. There's no evidence that Doyle hadn't also, other than you ahving adjudged him by a standard that places all the "supernatural" in the category of quackery.

    The evidence is above.

    I can't entirely blame ya. I've seen some shyte that I wouldn't have believed had I not experienced it first hand.

    Do you mean to imply that seeing or experiencing something means that it must be real? I'm seen many things that are not real, that do not exist, seeing them does not make them exist, experiencing them does not make them real.

    In my own case I interpret this using theological terminology, for personal reasons that are related to the whole experience. To another it might be interpreted differently.

    I hope you have taken into account the fallibility of the mind in accurately perceiving reality in certain situations. Experiences and recall of events have been shown to be shaped by misperceptions, what a person wants to believe, the reconstructive nature of memory, etc.

    Only two logical rules are needed to rescue us from these pitfalls: Occam's razor, and David Hume's "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence".

  • OpenFireGlass
    OpenFireGlass

    So what is the challenge?

    I mean, if I don't believe, then I don't have to come up with any proof..

    But, if the proof slaps me in the face, I'll believe...

    PEACE, Mike

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    TopHat:

    Does that mean, what we learn today goes out the window with what we learn tomorrow?

    No, it means that as we learn about our surroundings and widen our vistas, we realise that the world is not limited to the horizon - it's a huge great big place. This is the advantage of travel and education - it broadens the mind - not a wonder the WTS frowned on it! Previously our horizon was set to the wt and g.

    Skeptic2:

    I pride myself on taking a step back and reconsidering... ..I'm not sure how this relates to me pointing out that possessing the ability to think critically does not mean that it is employed in all situations.

    Take a step back and reconsider what I might have meant by that

    Do you mean to imply that seeing or experiencing something means that it must be real?

    Nope. I'm quite well aware of the difference between the subjective and the objective. Did you miss that I work in Mental Health Services??

    I'm sorry you are upset, please believe I wasn't making a personal attack on you, merely pointing out that the logic you employed did not imply (what I assumed was) the intended conclusion.

    I don't know where you got the idea I was upset. This only a webboard, after all. At least you are acknowledging that you are making assumptions at each stage of the experiment of life. In this case faulty ones, because you evidently aren't quite sure of the point I'm making.

    Communication is a two-way street of assertion and enquiry, however, so I must accept at least half of the blame for not being understood.

    I hope you have taken into account the fallibility of the mind in accurately perceiving reality in certain situations.

    Of course, hence my diatribe about personal interpretation.

    Only two logical rules are needed to rescue us from these pitfalls: Occam's razor, and David Hume's "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence".

    Alas I would finally definitively state that you are wrong on this point. You've not taken account of "truth is stranger than fiction", which assists you from falling into the pitfall of incredulity

  • kid-A
    kid-A

    "According to my way of thinking, to deny the possibility that God exists is a closed-minded position."

    > Atheists dont deny this possibility. Obviously, anything is a "possibility". They simply realize there is no real evidence in their perception for the existence of such a hypothetical being. According to your logic, denying the "possibility" that there are Leprechauns is equally "closed minded", and frankly, there is no more evidence for the existence of a god, as there is for leprechauns, purple unicorns, or Peter the Rabbit, and in the absence of any evidence to suggest these entities are anything more than fictional creations of the human mind, I find no logical or emotional reason for belief in said deity. Even those claiming to have "experienced" the supernatural can not state, with absolute certainty, that such experiences were nothing more than imagination, tricks of the mind, etc etc. Schizophrenics believe wholeheartedly that supernatural beings are talking to them. However, these sensory illusions are completely removed by blocking neural dopamine receptors. The point is, there is NO EVENT, for which a plausible, biological, psychological or physical explanation can be proffered as a viable alternative explanation to the "supernatural".

    I would turn the question back to you: Do you consider the possibility that god does NOT exist? Here is the paradox. Because religious "faith" by definition precludes you from even entertaining this possibility. In fact, it would be "sinful" for the mind of a believer to really accept that there may not be a god.

    "Simply, because if paranormal activity can be proven, who is to say that a high-er being does not exist."

    > No, not really. You are presuming that "paranormal" activity, if it was ever really proven to exist, would have to somehow be demonstrative of a supreme deity. Why? Paranormal activity, if it existed, could very simply be the result of some empirically demonstrable physical activity, some quirk of quantum mechanics which could all be described in a formula. Even if there really was demonstrable, proven evidence of paranormal powers, this in no way would prove or disprove the existence of some biblical, god-like creature. For example, "Aliens" from other worlds may possess technology which to us would appear to be "paranormal" but which for them, would simply be "technology". Hence, this would in no way demonstrate proof or disproof of a biblical deity.

  • plmkrzy
    plmkrzy

    Is there any popcorn left? Don't tell me there really wasn't any

  • AlmostAtheist
    AlmostAtheist
    Is there any popcorn left? Don't tell me there really wasn't any

    I don't deny the possibility that popcorn existed, but I don't think it's likely.

    Dave of the "apopcornist" class

  • lonelysheep
    lonelysheep
    "apopcornist" class

    haha!

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    The popcorn was a reality in my experience. Was it good for you?

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