Issuing a Challenge to Atheists and Unbelievers

by The wanderer 149 Replies latest jw friends

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    Well, LittleToe, if you think carefully about your experience with God, I think you can see why many people must have as much skepticism about its being real as they do with the claim of various JW "anointed ones" to having similar experiences. Why are you special? If God is who his followers claim, then he should be able to see that at least hundreds of millions of humans are at least as special as you, and give them similar experiences. As the American comedian Don Rickles used to say, "What am I? Chopped liver?"

    I think it's telling that only Christians have this sort of experience. Their religion demands that they have something like that, and so they do. We see this all the time with the crazy American Fundamentalist faith-healing and tongue-speaking sects. People who, for emotional reasons, want to join up with them, very quickly get these experiences. Why is that? I'm sure you don't actually believe that these people -- often extremely sincere -- really do get healed or speak in real foreign languages. Or that God is somehow involved with protecting those whacked out Bible Belt snake handlers from harm. How is your experience different?

    When my dad had his hallucinations, if he didn't have some measure of skepticism left he might have tried to convince others that his hallucinatory conversations with the people who appeared in his room were real. He might have succeeded. After all, no one else was there to disconfirm it, and it was his experience.

    So, in the same way that I must relegate the claim of the "anointed" JW I described to your option 2, so must I relegate yours. Why? Because I agree with what Carl Sagan wrote in his article "The Burden of Skepticism" in Skeptical Inquirer (vol. 12, Fall 1987):

    If you are only skeptical, then no new ideas make it through to you. You never learn anything new. You become a crotchety old person convinced that nonsense is ruling the world. (There is, of course, much data to support you.) But every now and then, maybe once in a hundred cases, a new idea turns out to be on the mark, valid and wonderful. If you are too much in the habit of being skeptical about everything, you are going to miss or resent it, and either way you will be standing in the way of understanding and progress.

    On the other hand, if you are open to the point of gullibility and have not an ounce of skeptical sense in you, then you cannot distinguish the useful as from the worthless ones. If all ideas have equal validity then you are lost, because then, it seems to me, no ideas have any validity at all.

    Some ideas are better than others. The machinery for distinguishing them is an essential tool in dealing with the world and especially in dealing with the future. And it is precisely the mix of these two modes of thought that is central to the success of science.

    I've been skeptical of extraordinary claims all my life. I have to think it must be part of my personality because it certainly wasn't taught to me by my JW parents or other JWs. I've never had anything even bordering on the sort of extraordinary experience described by many people. Does that make me wierd? Or does it make me not gullible?

    Beardo wonders if Satan or God seemed to appear to me personally, would I be skeptical? Damn right I would! I'd wonder if, for once, I was having a hallucination. But I'd also keep an open mind and demand proof from these smart guys that I wasn't hallucinating. If that weren't good enough for them, they could just zap me and I'd never know the difference. But if they took the trouble to appear to me, then I'd have to conclude that they wanted to convince me of something -- that they didn't think I was chopped liver.

    AlanF

  • AlmostAtheist
    AlmostAtheist

    Let's say you saw, with your own two eyes, a table move across the room.

    You Know there is no one else in the room. You Know that You didn't make it happen.

    Since You didn't make it happen, you cannot recreate it.

    Were you hallucinating or did it really happen?

    This thread has reminded me of my own experience with the "swaying punching bag", documented at this thread: An interesting "paranormal" experience, that was actually "normal"

    Essentially, I had a "table moving across the room" experience, but was lucky enough to ALSO see the trick that made it happen. It makes me wonder how often things like this happen to other people, but the circumstances prevent them from knowing why they happened.

    Of course, this doesn't prove such things don't happen. Rather it proves how easy it is for something to appear supernatural when they are really just natural.

    Dave

  • BlackSwan of Memphis
    BlackSwan of Memphis

    Dave, I think you make a good point. I guess what I'm getting at by adding the second person and the piano playing is that there Are times that phenomena cannot be explained or proven either way.

    No, you're right, it doesn't mean that it's a ghost or something paranormal in terms of spirits or whatever.

    But how do we scientifically test things that cannot be tested scientifically?

    Further, when a person says that they have experienced something that they cannot explain nor reproduce, is it fair to Always treat them as if they are on meth or acid? Or as if they had a delusion? And if there were other onlookers, to tiptoe to the line that is drawn before we call them out and out liars?

    Where do we draw the line? Of course we need to look as objectively and scientifically as possible at these things, but how far do we go before we pull out the "you're just delusional" line?

    Is it right and fair to put the scientific method on a pedestal as if it's never failed us?

    The last time I read any books on science, it has evolved over the centuries. Our understanding of who we are and what we are and the Universe itself will continue to grow.

    Anyway, as I said, where do we draw the line?

  • AlmostAtheist
    AlmostAtheist
    Further, when a person says that they have experienced something that they cannot explain nor reproduce, is it fair to Always treat them as if they are on meth or acid? Or as if they had a delusion? And if there were other onlookers, to tiptoe to the line that is drawn before we call them out and out liars?

    I don't think there's any value in trying to discount anyone else's experience. If I was there and had the experience with them, then perhaps I could comment. But even having a similar experience wouldn't put me in a position to question theirs.

    I would be willing to offer alternative explanations for what they saw, if I could think of one. But in my experience, people who see such things don't appreciate having alternatives presented. In fact, they often become hostile. Maybe this is because they assume I think they are lying, exaggerating, or hallucinating. I don't think this, but maybe they assume I do. And so they become defensive.

    Seriously weird things happen at the quantum level. Stuff that the guys that understand it say "I don't understand this" about. It's more than I can muster to know those sorts of "spooky" things are going on, and deny that tables move across the room on their own once in awhile.

    Dave of the "partly to mostly ambiguous" class

  • daystar
    daystar

    blackswan

    Further, when a person says that they have experienced something that they cannot explain nor reproduce, is it fair to Always treat them as if they are on meth or acid? Or as if they had a delusion? And if there were other onlookers, to tiptoe to the line that is drawn before we call them out and out liars?

    No, not fair at all. However, we delude ourselves all the time about all sorts of things without realizing it at all. It's a part of human makeup. It's how we function. Our minds fill in blanks in perception with its imagination, when the reality (or perhaps just another perspective) may be completely different. Take Dave's example of the punching bag. If he had not noticed the "tell", he may be here today, swearing he had a truly paranormal experience. But he was just skeptical enough and perceptive enough to have noticed a detail that gave it away.

    There are books and books and books out there instructing one in different methods for inducing a person into having paranormal experiences, without mind-altering drugs or sleep deprivation, though either of those might help.

    Now, regarding onlookers... Any time someone says "but there were people there who saw the same thing!!", my response to myself is always "so?" It would be a mistake to assume that the same thing that might be affecting one observer might not also be affecting the others. We effect each other's minds all the time. In the same environment, people are likely to be affected in similar ways. In other words, people can, and often do, share the same delusions.

    - Devil's Advocate

  • BlackSwan of Memphis
    BlackSwan of Memphis

    I would be willing to offer alternative explanations for what they saw, if I could think of one. But in my experience, people who see such things don't appreciate having alternatives presented. In fact, they often become hostile. Maybe this is because they assume I think they are lying, exaggerating, or hallucinating. I don't think this, but maybe they assume I do. And so they become defensive.

    I think that this is because both sides have been attacked and so both sides start expecting it.

    Skeptics get attacked for not having enough faith, and people with faith get attacked for not being practical.

    So each get defensive when sensitive issues come up.

    This is one of those areas that it's hard to draw the line. If a person says they've had an experience(s) but there is no evidence to back them up and no eyewitnesses, are they delusional or are their experiences real? And I don't mean real to Them. I mean physically real.

    No one would know except them. And even then .....

    Seriously weird things happen at the quantum level. Stuff that the guys that understand it say "I don't understand this" about. It's more than I can muster to know those sorts of "spooky" things are going on, and deny that tables move across the room on their own once in awhile.

    One of these days, we might very well have some logical explanations for things that happen. Explanations that will be commonplace. When that time comes, it shall be interesting to see how both sides react to the answers.

    ***The original post of this thread was referring to TAPS. I don't know if anyone here really knows much about these guys. They aren't your atypical ghosthunters. They debunk 99.5% (that would be my estimate) of the cases their called out to check out. They're plumbers by day with RotoRooter and have a pretty good idea that most things have a good reason. Like passing cars, shaky houses, kids imaginations etc. I have only once or twice seen them say that they think a house is haunted Possibly. More often then not, that does not happen. They do have a few people that work with them that I find to be more then a little annoying, but this show is Not like some of the other ones out there where Everything is haunted.

    Suppose I'm just hoping that even some of our most hardcore skeptics would be willing to watch it for a season and then post a response to them.

  • BlackSwan of Memphis
    BlackSwan of Memphis

    Daystar:

    Hey I totally agree with what you're saying!

    Believe me, I've talked with a few people in my jw days that made me think that the person is sniffing a little too much glue before praying.

    And as for others seeing things....Ok here's an example:

    Back in 19 something () there was this incidence that occurred in Portugal.

    Some 70,000 people were present with three little kids when the Blessed Virgin Mary appeared and made the sun dance in the sky and then fall.

    Not only is this not really physically possible, but....

    About roughly Half of that number said that they Saw this take place.

    Think about it:

    Some 30 thousand People said they saw this happen.

    The others, I suppose, did not.

    So what happened?

    There are, imo, some very good logical explanations for what happened.

    BUT

    What if it happened? What if the sun danced in the sky and fell? What if even though it might have been illusory and not a real occurrence, what if the effect did happen at this exact moment that three little kids said it would happen?

    I'm not sayin' it did and I'm not sayin' it didn't. .....

    What do You think? Inquiring minds want to know.

    There are books and books and books out there instructing one in different methods for inducing a person into having paranormal experiences, without mind-altering drugs or sleep deprivation, though either of those might help.

    I would be interested in experiencing the experience, although, I would discount anything that happened, if I used mind altering drugs. The sleep deprivation wouldn't work, cos I'd fall asleep before I could experience anything.

  • TopHat
    TopHat

    What if it happened? What if the sun danced in the sky and fell? What if even though it might have been illusory and not a real occurrence, what if the effect did happen at this exact moment that three little kids said it would happen?

    It didn't bring peace to the world, did it? So what is the point of the sun dancing in the sky and falling?

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Alan:

    It seems your argument comes from the direction of claims of being "special". You've seen my interactions on this board long enough to know that I make no such claim. What is this, skepticism by jealousy???

    I think it's telling that only Christians have this sort of experience.

    Ermmm... no they don't! I suspect that American Fundamentalist Christians might want you to believe that, but in my own wanderings I've discovered that it's not as unique as I was first led to believe. I changed my opinion based on wider and better information. As I continue to learn I assert my right to further change my opinion as I deem necessary.

    People who, for emotional reasons, want to join up with them, very quickly get these experiences.

    In my own case I was looking for no such thing. I was content with my life as a JW Elder of the Other Sheep, with a beautiful wife who was similarly convinced. You may recall that it was as a consequence of the experience that my doctrine changed, resulting in me leaving the WTS.

    I'm sure you don't actually believe that these people -- often extremely sincere -- really do get healed or speak in real foreign languages.

    Having seen faith-healing in action and personally knowing someone before and after an event that I attended who was healed I have to say that my mind has been opened to more than just the possibility. This was a pre-registered medical complaint that was cured. That doesn't mean that I credulous of every claim, but upon what evidence do you base your position?

    I've never had anything even bordering on the sort of extraordinary experience described by many people. Does that make me wierd? Or does it make me not gullible?

    Neither, it just makes you you.

    I once used the analogy of visiting Africa, commenting on the culture and even the smell of the continent. Does it make you wierd if you've never experienced that? Does it somehow make me special because I have? If you think it somehow defines us both as alternatively wierd or gullable then your assumptions are wonky. Your experiences are your experiences, for better or for worse. They don't define a person.

    Similarly, beliefs don't define a person. What we do with those beliefs helps define us. We are defined in the eyes of others as they experience our behaviours and interpret them based upon their own assumptions and beliefs.

    You might want to re-read your quote from Dawkins. It's a wonderful world out there. Not everyone who disagrees with your view of the "supernatural" has disengaged their analytical apparatus, regardless of what you may believe about them.

    Plm:
    Gary ordered some Jello, and we're just awaiting it's arrival before we break out the swimming pool for the wrestling

  • BlackSwan of Memphis
    BlackSwan of Memphis

    What if it happened? What if the sun danced in the sky and fell? What if even though it might have been illusory and not a real occurrence, what if the effect did happen at this exact moment that three little kids said it would happen?

    It didn't bring peace to the world, did it? So what is the point of the sun dancing in the sky and falling?

    Uhm the point would be that there were some 70,000 present roughly half said they saw something and the other half I guess, Didn't. I'm not here arguing the teachings of the Catholic Church or that Mary was standing right there. (ps I'm not catholic. I used the term Blessed Virgin Mary out of some respect for the Catholics here.)

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