Issuing a Challenge to Atheists and Unbelievers (page 4)

lowden

To quote Terry from a similar debate a while back:

"Extraordinary claims require EXTRAORDINARY PROOF!!!!!"

Peace

Lowden

Basically, I found the topic of discussion
a little disappointing. Why? Because an
individual who claims to be open-minded
would at least allow for the possibility
of a creator or higher power.

The responses gave me flashbacks of being
in the Kingdom Hall, because when I would
strike up conversations regarding UFO's
it would be like running into a brick
wall.

Based on the responses, no doubt, there are
individuals on this discussion board that
would not make allowances for that either.

Peace,

The Wanderer

skeptic2

OK the million dollar challenge is out then. I stand corrected.

But still - show your proof of the existence of God to the world and you'll be the worlds most in demand celebrity. You'll be a millionaire in no time. But please, share some with me for coming up with the idea.

BlackSwan of Memphis

Wanderer, I just have to ask...

Are you open minded enough to admit that maybe there is no God? That we are not created? That we are the product of mere chance and circumstance?

Are you open minded enough to entertain the possibility that God is a product of man and not vice versa?

I don't know you and I'm not going to assume I know the answer to this. But my point is that there are also many theists/deists who so strongly believe in Creation and a higher power that they would never admit they could be wrong.

Running into brick walls happens on both sides.

The wanderer

Hello BlackSwan:

Yes, it could be true that there is no God. And an
open-minded person would have to accept that. I can
accept that maybe true, however, on the other hand
I leave open the possibility of a higher being.

P.S. I used the Illustration of the paranormal
because if that possibility exists then, perhaps,
there could be a Creator.

Maybe, I should have used UFO's instead. LOL

Peace,

The Wanderer

girasole

Quote:
>>>>>Now, that you are no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses without a belief
in God, and associated with an organization that has a structured belief
system, does that justify a disbelief in God or the supernatural?<<<<<

First off, I think that I can safely speak for most, that most of us did not leave the witnesses and then just suddenly decide to also not believe in god. I have found that, because of the impact that religion has had on our lives, ex-witnesses tend to scrutinize religion in general and the claims of religion and the Bible a little more than the general population. It appears that that investigation and scrutiny has led some to not believe in god. Which is a right that each person holds - to believe what they will. We all,

Personally I do not deny the possibility that god exists - but my investigations have led me to believe that god most likely does not exist. I do not feel the need to attribute what I see and what I can't see, understand, or explain to proof of god's existence. I simply means that I can't explain how it happens or that I can't see it with my naked eye. To me, it's comparable to watching a magic show - it's magic because you don't know how it happens but that doesn't mean that there is no explanation or that it's supernatural.

girasole

Liberty

I thought I gave a very reasonable and open minded reply. Yes it is possible that there is a God, but so far no evidence for Him has been presented. If my life is guided by common sense and I respect my fellow humans then I'm not sure what belief in a silent ,intangable, invisible God can add to my life. Not to mention, that history reveals lots of true believers who were cruel, crazy, and immoral so apparently there is not even a linkage to diety belief and being a good person. There are nice folks who believe in UFOs and evil folks who believe in them but the human condition is not enhanced by any such beliefs. It is fun and interesting to think about the paranormal but such speculations will not cure cancer, build a safer car, or create cold fusion. What is REAL is interesting enough for study so why waste all our time and energy on that which MAY be real.

skeptic2

Personally I do not deny the possibility that god exists - but my investigations have led me to believe that god most likely does not exist. I do not feel the need to attribute what I see and what I can't see, understand, or explain to proof of god's existence. I simply means that I can't explain how it happens or that I can't see it with my naked eye. To me, it's comparable to watching a magic show - it's magic because you don't know how it happens but that doesn't mean that there is no explanation or that it's supernatural.

Well said. That's why magicians, from Harry Houdini to James Randi, make such good skeptics. They understand how to fool people, and how people fool themselves.

Gadget

Yes, it could be true that there is no God. And an
open-minded person would have to accept that. I can
accept that maybe true, however, on the other hand
I leave open the possibility of a higher being.

P.S. I used the Illustration of the paranormal
because if that possibility exists then, perhaps,
there could be a Creator.

Maybe, I should have used UFO's instead. LOL

Peace,

The Wanderer

I suppose this would depend on what definition you put on 'god'. If you go with a traditional religous view of a supreme all powerful god, then verifying the existance of UFO's or the supernatural would have no impact on whether or not I believed god exists.

However, if you define 'god' as a higher being I find that a totally different prospect. I think that to think we are the top of the tree/food chain/supreme being would be a very arrogant belief.

But just because something out there may be a higher being than us humans, does that mean they are our god? Human beings may be a higher being compared to domestic animal, but does that mean my pet cat thinks I'm god?

Basically, I found the topic of discussion
a little disappointing. Why? Because an
individual who claims to be open-minded
would at least allow for the possibility
of a creator or higher power.

And I think most people on here have open minded enough to admit that it is theoretically possible for god to exist, just that they don't think its very likely.

skeptic2

This page raises a number of issues about the existence of God:

Proof that there is no God (partly serious, partly humor)

But you only really need Occam's razor:

Occam's razor

Occam's razor was formulated by William of Occam (1285-1349) and says: "Non est ponenda pluralites sive necessitate" or in english: "Do not multiply entities unless necessarily" . It is a principle for scientific labour which means that one should use a simple explanation with a few explanatory premises before a more complex one.

Let's say that everything must be created, and that was done by an omnipotent god. A god which stands above time, space, moral and existence, which is self containing and in it self has it's own cause. This entity can surely be replaced by the known world. The world stands above time, space, moral, existence, is self containing and in it has it's own meaning. Most theists agree that god has a nature. Then we must raise the question, who created god's nature? If we just accept that god has a nature and exists without a cause, why not say that the known world just is and that the laws of physics are what they are, without a cause?

God is not really an explanation, only a non-explanation. It is impossible to gain information from non-information so God as an explanation is a dead end. When we have said that the reason for something is that 'god did it that way' there is no way to understand it any further. We just shrug our shoulders and accept things as they are. To explain the unknown by god is only to explain how it happened, not why. If we are to investigate the world and build our views of life from the world, we cannot assume a god. Because adding god as an explanation leaves as many, if not more questions than it explains, god has to be removed with Occam's razor if we are serious in investigating the world.

Issuing a Challenge to Atheists and Unbelievers

Occam's razor

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