Sorry double post
Sorry double post
johnny cip: AULD SOUL SAID: Most JWs are not rabid, johnny cip. Most don't deserve what Skally suggested
Your reply calls defensive JWs rabid. RABID things are not defensive, they are aggressive. You have described yourself as aggressive, and Skally as aggressive, and you have described JWs as extremely DEFENSIVE. They are defensive because you attack them, like an ass. A rabid ass.
When people are on the defensive, they are not hearing ANYTHING you say. They are not opening up their minds, they are shutting down their minds. Neither you nor Skally are giving people a way OUT, you are giving them a firsthand experience of why they should be terrified to leave. They will be wondering whether they would become like you, and that fear alone will become one more reason to stay a JW.
johnny cip: but then again how many people you know that can run into a boat load of jw's and out talk them all on wt doctine. and make them walk away with their tails between their legs.
Make them walk away from HER, I agree. But they don't walk away from the bOrg, because they meet her. They don't even doubt the bOrg because of meeting her. Their confidence in the bOrg is redoubled by encouters with Skally. And the same goes for you, for that matter. [insert fake applause here] Yay! You made some people remain JWs! Good for you!
I doubt there is a single person on this forum who is not capable of making JWs walk away with their tail between their legs. The idea isn't to make them walk away, that isn't tough at all. The idea is to make them stay and talk. And use their brain instead of shutting it down. Can you or Skally do that?
Johnny Cip and SF
As a nonJW, I have for 30 years stood up to my MIL on issues ranging from child rearing to holidays, to doctrine. Recently, when she shunned my wife after 25 years, I fired off three angry letters pointing out her and the WTS hypocracy. The letters upset and unnerved her greatly. After coming to this forum, and studying the content and demeanor of Auld Soul’s posts, I came to the conclusion that, while the tirades of my 3 letters struck a certain chord I’m sure, I was becoming a One Trick Pony. So I layed out a new letter in which I asked my MIL or any of her elders to please write to me and describe how, when, where, and why did the FDS turn the power over to the GB during the 1914-1930 time period. I ended with AuldSoul’s words: I am not attacking you, I just don’t understand….Please explain.
Then when I spoke with my MIL, I apologized for what may have seemed like personal attacks, but they were directed at the WTS doctrines, not her. She hugged me. I told her that she being a lifelong JW, probably had her own share of doubts….and she preceded to talk for 30 minutes about 1975, elders, etc….all of her doubts. Did standing up to her originally help? Yes. But having her open up required a non-threatening tone. …one I borrowed from AuldSoul.
This forum has readers in excess of 60 years of age. Those in their twenties to fifties may not be offended by bad language, but those in the 70+ generation most certainly do. Out of respect for those fine older folks, would you please stop using swear words? JW’s didn’t invent the laws of common decency, they have existed in society for thousands of years.
Please show some respect. You are in the outside world now. We have laws also.
I must say that when I read any of Johnny Cip's post, I always imagine I'm being yelled at, which wears real thin after a while. I can understand his passion and rage, but that will marginalize you very quickly, and is not effective in winning minds and hearts - or arguments. People just stop listening.
I'm still meditating on the effect it would have if an elder respectfully and with dignity made some of the points that have been suggested, from the platform.
Probably one elder would just be disturbing to the congregation - but can you imagine the effect if it happened with elder after elder, in congregation after congregation, and all the friends knew this was going on? THAT might really make a difference, might really create a tipping point.
Seeker4: THAT might really make a difference, might really create a tipping point.
True, but, in my opinion, it is unlikely that enough elders would do it to create that tipping point. I mean, we are talking about an organization that disbands entire congregations with nistructiosn to any displaced that they are NOT to pass along what happened on pain of disfellowshipping. They've proven what they will do in response to the direct approach, whatever it takes to seal the breach.
As we will shortly find out (from what I understand) they are even moving to try and plug the little leaks at Headquarters. They have figured out how we know things well in advance. They just haven't figured out who. They strike back with zeal against any who try to overtly pull the curtain back, and any who listen to them.
I know it was pretty much wishful thinking, but who knows what another decade or so might do.
Interesting reference to "plugging the leaks" at headquarters. Any more info on that?
This has taken some interesting turns since I last checked in.
I know there are some that feel folks in my position are cowards for not speaking what we believe the truth to be. Maybe your right. For me personally, being a JW is the only thing I know. To wake up suddenly one day and completly change your belief system is quite difficult. I am angry with the WTS for associating with the UN, for putting out false prophesy, for the all the people that were hurt for the blood policy, etc. I'm disappointed about the lack of love, about the Pharisee mentality. But, the thought that it is somehow still God's organization has been pounded into my head for so long, its tough to shake. Mentally, I can see it but emotionally it still tugs at me.
The last thing I think I can do is go off half cocked. I strongly disagree with the disfellowshiping policy but understand if I were to take the suggestion of using one of my meeting parts as a tirade, that's where I would be. Cut off from family and friends. I understand that still is likely to occur but I need time to formulate a plan and prepare myself to deal with the consequences. Is that selfish? Yes to a degree. But what about my wife? Don't I owe her something? How would my giving a farewell speech help her?
Also, the fact is that NO ONE will listen to me if I do that. I will be dismissed as being mentally distrubed. They will shut me down as soon as I talk. I just don't see how that action would be very loving to anyone. Auld Soul mentioned how he got out 7 people. Do you think it was by being confrontational? I think that has its place but more in line with preventing people from being JWs not convincing JWs to leave.
Right now, I can gently point people in the right direction. I just have to be very careful. I am sure that I will not remain an elder for much longer but I'm very cautious by nature. Remember, I'm the one who has to live with the decision. Arthur made a good point when he said that we have to take care of our family first and foremost. My entire life has already changed. I'm beyond the point of no return and have no confidence in my future.
I understand the anger. And I'm not looking for anyone to feel sorry for me. Being a JW elder is not up the food chain very far from Joe Publisher. It seems Bethel holds us all in derision.
Anyway, thanks for the warm welcome and I appreciate all the PMs. Because of the kindness shown to me, I am convinced that the WTS is way out of bounds when it comes to the way those who leave are treated. I think you've shown more Christ-like love and compassion to me than I've experienced elsewhere. I hope one day that I can repay that kindness.
You raise a lot of valid points. Give all this some time. Going the Johnny Cip route is, I firmly believe, counter-productive in the end.
These are life altering decisions, both for yourself and others. When I left, I made it a point to stop commenting at meetings, even though many of the friends asked me not to stop, as my comments were thought provoking (hey, there's a JW term, eh!). But they were also disturbing to a lot of people, and I could see it was creating issues in the congregation i wasn't yet prepared to deal with.
I'm in a different place now, but the journey is the journey, you don't arrive at a destination with the first step.
We'll stay in touch.
yes now i recall auld soul help out 7 jw's and i applaud his work. truely a great feat. i hope he helps out 7 more. i'm not as wild and crazy. as many think here from my posts. i have spent 100's of hours talking to jw's one on one. using logic wt's, bible , and plan old history. from the public library. to discount some of the faulty wt teachings that everything is worst since 1914. i don't do this on the internet, i work in person , or over the phone. i will spend as much time with a local jw, as they want. i fact i always offer my name and phone number to any jw i meet in the street. if they want to talk more. and you would be surprised . quite a few call. i'm basically a polite person. and have talked with some jw's for months. other last anywhere from 5 minutes to and hour. it's up to them how much truth(facts) they can handle. did i help any jw out of the org. good question. since i'm working from outside of the cong's and don'r know most of the people i speak with personally. I can't say for sure. i do know for fact that one elder i've known for 40 years. after spending months talking to him one on one at his house. really nice guy by the way.(maybe something like Zarco) stepped down as an elder shortly after our little talks. became irregular at the hall. and went out to get a computer . to do some more research. has he left i don't know. his whole family are jw's . most likely not. does he see the wt different now , i'm sure of it. i never told him to get up on the podium and start raging about 1874 ,pyramids and mircle wheat. our talk were held in strict confidence. maybe not for him . but i would never tell other jw's . that know him. that i even spent time with him. b/c non of these other jw's i've known for 40 years would give me the time of day. and would most likely tell him to never talk to me. these are the jw's i've had it out with many times. i started out nice. and got all their faulty reasoning. but time and research was on my side. time after time i would shut down their arguements. to the point . it did become a pissing contest. but i learned to use thier own words against them. to the point were they shut up. and had no more answers. and your talking a lot of work for one man. to take on a whole circuit. yes i will pat myself on the back. the rabid jw's that know of me . keep a safe distance. they are scared to engauge me. why because they know they are going to lose. and i'm going to make them look like dopes infrom of thier flock. and i search them out. if their in f.s. holding up mag's they are fare game. and i show the jw's that follow these prideful ,haughty wt zombies. that they can't even answer the simplest of questions. and let the jw's know their field serv elder is nothing more than a spritual drunkard. and he's not worth respect. i test jw's on their knowlwdge. it's not my fault they get tied up in knots. and in 90% of the cases act like RABID jw's. blame the wt for this not me. wishing everyone well john