Oh, oh . . . *looks around*
I killed it.
I killed the thread . . . from being a woman and being disfellowshipped, besides. . .
ESTEE
Say You're a Bethelite & Monitoring JWD - How Would You Feel About THESE??
by Seeker4 356 Replies latest jw friends
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Seeker4
Well, this thread continues to take some unexpected twists and turns, and has certainly not died off. Good. I started it to get some folks thinking and sharing their thoughts, and that has gone far beyond what I could have expected. I haven't been able to keep up with all of it, but have tried my best.
I for one welcome any active elders and other Witnesses to the forum. Leaving this organization is a process, and we'll all go about it differently. Some will stay for a variety of reasons even though they know it's not the truth. Time will bring a lot of changes to their lives. In the meantime, let them stay here.
And welcome Velta.
S4
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restrangled
As a former rank and file member and the daughter of an elder who left.....
I admire any man in a position in the society who is taking it upon themselves to think for themselves. I would never hold you responsible for not trying to bring out anyone with you.
Everyone is responsible for themselves.
I want to thank each and every former elder or elders still in, on this board contributing.
This may be off the subject and a simplistic addition to this thread, but take it to heart.
my 2 cents.
r.
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Quandry
I didn't really mean to fill someone else's post with my own story, but it seems to have become that way. As I had stated on another thread, or it may have been this one, doctrinal flip flops unnerved me, but I was stubbornly holding on to the only organization that held peace among its members earthwide and viewed any questionings as "apostate leanings that we must flee from." I was the best dub in respects to wanting wholeheartedly to believe, even if I did not believe I was good enough as a witness. I was always feeling guilty for not doing more.
Around this time, my husband wasn't feeling well. He went to the Dr. and had to undergo a battery of tests. He had high blood pressure, which was now even higher. He needed three different meds to control it. He also had to do the blood sugar test and found out he was diabetic. Also, he was passing blood, and they found cancerous polyps which had to be removed and cauterized. All of these procedures took time and a toll on him. The blood pressure meds made him so dizzy he fell several times, injuring himself. He called the brothers to say that for a while he could not do the WT study for the congregation. He began to miss meetings. I went, along with my daughter. He cried because he could not go, because he'd always been so regular. His nerves were also shot from the medication, the dizziness, and the fact that he could not work, being so sick.
The elders would ask in passing how he was. How do you convey all of that info in detail in two minutes before the meeting starts? I told one elder that my husband was depressed because he was missing meetings, but he never called. One elder did come by with a bucket of chicken from KFC, which was nice. When the CO came, a brother that my husband did not really like brought him by. Other than that, there were few calls about him. In fact, the PO never called. He asked me how he was, literally as the meeting was starting one time. I was really irritated by then, so I just said he was fine and walked away. The body of elders was so loving that when he did feel like coming back, and it really hadn't been that long, he was told he was no longer the WT conductor, because the brothers felt he "didn't handle his illness correctly."
What a blow to my husband. He had been an elder for over twenty years, had helped form a new congregation as PO, always been regular in service and meeting attendance, never turned down an assignment, gone to a distant hall when asked to for two years, always taken his talks, etc. He was so upset and hurt by this unloving action. How does one "control" an illness? How does one "handle it correctly?" He never said anything to anyone about this, just determined to get back to meetings and tried to tell me that it didn't matter that he was no longer the WT study conductor.
At this time, my daughter, just sixteen, got into trouble along with a few friends. What it amounted to was nothing serious. She tasted alcohol, took a couple of puffs from a cigarette, kissed a boy, etc. Never had been in trouble before. Not in school, not in the congregation. Never had an opportunity. She was never allowed out without us prior to a few weeks before this.
Another girl confessed to the elders. My daughter was called in. She was really sorry, and apologized to her dad and me. My husband was surprised that there was no investigative committee of two to question my child, but it went straight to a JC.
I remember that my advice to her was to listen and take to heart all that the elders said to her, as they had her best interests at heart. My husband went to the meetings with her. He had heard that the chairman of the JC was the man who had brought the CO to visit him, and he did not feel that it would be advisable for me to go, as this man did not have a high opinion of women. He told me that the chairman had told him of his opinion of what my daughter was involved in. It was so bizarre that I couldn't believe it. I'll write more later.
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sf
I welcome them here too. I want them to start telling their flocks to come here too.
What would happen if an elder, P.O., C.O. or D.O. who had been coming here to learn the truth and gain tools to exit the org. stood up at your k.h. podium and tell you the true reason your leaders in N.Y. didn't want you on sites like these? And then proceeded to make sure you wrote down in your notes, this website address, along with freeminds and silentlambs.
What would you think? How would you feel?
I get real irritated when I keep hearing the fear people have over this book publishing corporation. You know it's a complete fraud and sham. You know by now it is deadly. You know it has epidemic child abuse CONTINUING AS WE SPEAK. You know abusers are protected. You know by now how they compromised the entire organization of Witnesses by even going anywhere near the EVIL UNITED NATIONS(building), let alone the bs about library cards. You know that the door to door preaching work is nothing but recruitment and for rewards (golden everlasting life carrot). That the literature is not healthy. You know WTBTS is deep in the real estate business and uses "CHARITABLE DONATIONS" for 'things' that have nothing to do with jws. You know they foster hatred and the shunning policy destroys families.
You know these things because you learned them here and on other pertinent sites that blow the lid off the WT.
WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO FEAR BY STANDING UP AT THE PODIUM AND TELLING THOSE PEOPLE YOU CARE SO DEEPLY FOR AND ABOUT EVERYTHING YOU NOW KNOW.
Tell them there is nothing to fear anymore. It's okay to research for truth. TELL THEM THIS. BRING THEM TO THE SITE. SHOW THEM THE TRUTH THAT YOU NOW KNOW.
How does it go...the truth will set them free, brothers. Their lives keep ticking away, just like yours and mine. F.E.A.R.-ing a book publishing company is pretty silly actually, if I may be so bold.
Respectfully, sKally
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AuldSoul
SF: F.E.A.R.-ing a book publishing company is pretty silly actually, if I may be so bold.
You may, and have been. But there is more to fear than the organization. In fact, without intending to speak for Zarco or Doubting Bro, I don't get the feeling either of these men fear the organization.
If that's what you thought, you assumed it—even if you are right.
They fear unsettling others, damaging them, hurting them, causing them needless pain and discomfort. If I may be so bold, you have made it pretty plain that you can't empathize with those fears.
AuldSoul
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Arthur
s.f.
I just logged onto the site and read your posts in response to my statements to Zarco. I was intrigued and perhaps a bit entertained by some of your statements. It always amazes me how people who have never been congregation elders can so easily pass judgment onto them for their perceived misdeeds; especially toward those elders who post here.
You seem to think that their situation is so simplistic that all they need to do be a whistle-blower by matter of factly presenting certain facts to their congregations. I'm afraid that this is a totally unrealistic and fantastical idea in many situations; especially those elders who have families. Unless the elder's wife is in full agreement, such a drastic action could very well ensure that this elder would never see his children again. This is because such a drastic move as endorsing "apostate" ideas so openly in the congregation would almost guarantee immediate disfellowshipping of the elder. Such men, even though they have a responsibility toward the congregation; must take care of their families first and foremost. If an elder such as Zarco does discover untruths within the course of his research; this does not obligate him to take such a huge step in such a short period of time. Sometimes, the help that he must give to others can be most effectively given slowly, and steadily over a period of time, instead of using a "shoot from the hip" approach.
Another very important point to remember is that every single adult publisher is partly responsible for their lack of knowledge. It is they who chose not to do their own research and investigation. It is they themselves who have refused to walk into a public library and do some simple research. It is they themselves who have chosen not to do any research on the internet. It is they themselves who have "written off" ex-members as "apostates". Ultimately, they must bear the responsibility of their own stubborness and close-mindedness. We all must be responsible for our own actions. I myself, must own up to the close-mindesness, denial, and false pride that kept me from addressing many of my doubts for so many years.
Another point to consider is that there are elders on this site who just aren't sure what they believe. Many of them aren't sure if the JWs have the truth or not. I think that Zarco might fit into this category. Why would you or me expect him to do something so drastic (and risk losing his family) over facts of which he is not yet 100% sure? Everyone needs time to slowly research, investigate, and ponder over such information, and it's implications. They must take their time to really ask themselves if they totally accept this new troubling information that they have uncovered. This is a very difficult and sometimes painful process - even for congregation elders.
So, please, let's cut Zarco and others some slack. Let's give them the benefit of the doubt, and allow them to answer these very complex issues for themselves before we ask them to walk into their respective Kingdom Halls to be whistle-blowers. Let's show them a little bit more compassion.
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compound complex
Dear Seeker4,
I see your mention of Kitten Whiskers as a new poster, one of potentionally more future posters. Her question over a technical problem and its solution got me here that day. I haven't stopped "talking" since I jumped on board. Many of the thoughts and emotions, some of the experiences related, and the gradual, resultant illumination pertaining to this drama of dramas, is my story too. I've devoted my life to serving my Heavenly Father and His son, and now I'm seeking their direction in an entirely new kind of ministry. Seems that the "ninety-nine" could use our help as well as the "one." Thanx so much for your post.
Yours truly,
Compound Complex
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Frank75
Arthur- If an elder such as Zarco does discover untruths within the course of his research; this does not obligate him to take such a huge step in such a short period of time. Sometimes, the help that he must give to others can be most effectively given slowly, and steadily over a period of time, instead of using a "shoot from the hip" approach.
I agree wholeheartedly.
There is a saying that "there is nothing worse than an ex-smoker". In reference to the anti smoking rhetoric and judgment of everyone who does not come to the same epiphany at the same time as they did. It is human nature to condescend to those around us. When it comes to belittling someone else's impulses or addictions after we have quit them, results in 99 times out of 100 rather producing an opposite effect.
The same situation is true if not more so for witnesses or people coming out of any highly addictive cult based setting (See book "When God becomes a drug" Leo Booth). If there is one thing that we had drummed into us as JW's it was pride of the belief that we had the whole thing worked out when it came to the bible and "truth". So we had an aversion to accepting literature or argumentation from other persons of faith. Add to this the massive amounts of energy and resources devoted by the hierarchy to vilify dissidents, recognize them early, cut them out and avoid them.
Like the old original Star Trek episode where everyone on the planet was "Of Landrew", (Very well done I might add). Anyone who didn't speak in the prescribed manner was challenged as not being "of Landrew" and exposed. The WT has spent good money creating the same atmosphere.
I was liberally minded too as Dub and not only was it being whispered behind the scenes that I was an apostate, but people I knew and loved even called me a "small "a" apostate". It was not long before I was being excluded from meetings, given less responsibility, removed on frivolous grounds and effectively being distanced by the fear mongering service committee in my congregation.
Zarco has his work cut out for him. Believe me, if he has been counseling people to "pursue higher education" or some of the other liberal viewpoints he has expressed here, there is no way it has not been whispered into the ears of zealot fellow elders who are shoot first ask questions later conservatives. Even the CO knows about him and has his eye on him. If he think he has a special "in" with the CO or DO, then wait and see who the next one is in the CO rotation. 3 years is not a long time, and sooner or later he will be exposed in the eventual witch hunt manner that has befallen many of us.
Zarco will and should move at his own pace. Encouraging him to speak out now, openly and prematurely, only goes to perpetuate the lunatic apostate stereotype that the WT has worked so hard to personify in their literature.
That is not meant to belittle anyone who has chosen to speak out openly, as everyone's circumstances are different. If you have never been an elder or ministerial servant who cared about people then you have no idea of the difficult situation that you are in. Jesus was even affected by the dynamic that he knew would be caused by his final confrontation. It is not easy to understand if you are not in Zarco's shoes IMHO.
Arthur-Another very important point to remember is that every single adult publisher is partly responsible for their lack of knowledge. It is they who chose not to do their own research and investigation. It is they themselves who have refused to walk into a public library and do some simple research. It is they themselves who have chosen not to do any research on the internet. It is they themselves who have "written off" ex-members as "apostates". Ultimately, they must bear the responsibility of their own stubborness and close-mindedness. We all must be responsible for our own actions. I myself, must own up to the close-mindesness, denial, and false pride that kept me from addressing many of my doubts for so many years.
Here-Here! So well put. The other dynamic that was hard for me to admit when i was in the JW's and coming out was that we were all responsible for the dynamic of control that existed. Yes the teaching is what put the dynamic there, but we are individuals and we did not have to accept it. It is us who ask the questions of others instead of looking into it on our own, it was often us who invited the elders into our private lives and were perturbed when they wouldn't leave, and it was us who accepted without proof what was taught in the literature.
It is often the publishers who have put the elders and others on the pedestal they are on. Just as when the Jews opted for a king and given the warning of how bad that would be for them, they still chose to go that route. Many who stay JW's even though they don't believe the religion do so because of what they get out of it. That could be the power and prominence of the elite down to a simple need for structure and a visible works and reward based belief system.
Zarco, you take your time and be sure of what you are doing. In the meantime do not do anything that will turn people off from embarking on the journey that you are on. Lead by example and help as many as possible to open their eyes. Avoid the mistakes that many of us made who got out with only the shirt on our backs or the skin on our teeth.
In this game you can only leave once, there are no do-overs!
Frank75
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AuldSoul
Overall, this has to be the best thread I have read on this forum, so far.
Frank75: In this game you can only leave once, there are no do-overs!
I agree with your advice to Zarco 100%, and the same goes for anyone in his situation or similar situations. Leaving in such a way that you can be at peace with the way you left is VERY important, even if that means a "shoot from the hip" fast farewell.
Respectfully,
AuldSoul