Have We Been Mislead About 9/11? Revisited

by JamesThomas 144 Replies latest members politics

  • JamesThomas
    JamesThomas

    Will not have a chance to get back to this thread for many hours, and just wanted to say again, for those who are open and curious, I suggest: Joseph Firmage's 29 page paper on Intersecting Facts and Theories on 9/11, found here: (online PDF Document (click on me)). He organises a lot of otherwise confusing data into one place which can be a good starting place for further research if one so desires.

    I have spent weeks, and dozens and dozens of hours reading and investigating, and I'll tell you it can become extremely confusing and chaotic. What really convinced me that there is a critical need for a thorough unhindered investigation -- executed without negligence and omissions like so much of the official story -- is the huge amount of conflicting and suspicious events that all coalesce when complicity is factored in. The above mentioned document does a good job of coherently presenting much of the data in a laid-out and understandable fashion.

    If you are certain there was no complicity, then you're certain and no one will convince you other wise. If you are uncertain and wondering, curious as to what all the fuse is about, and open to looking (no harm in looking) then please give it a read.

    You know, a post like this is not easy. It takes a bit of courage, or craziness, or something, to speak for what you feel is truth when knowing that those you may influence find it too painful too hear. However, a time comes when, if information and evidence which strongly suggests truth -- no matter how distressing -- is not presented openly, rationally and sanely, we will instead be enslaved by lies and those who perpetuate them. We've been there; done that.

    j

  • Arthur
    Arthur

    Hi James Thomas,

    You certainly opened up a can of worms didn't you? This thread just might go on as long as the 607/587 debate. ( kidding )

    I too, am bothered by many of the irreconcilable anomalies and unanswered questions from 9/11. I personally, was dissatisfied with the 9/11 commission. I thought that so many issues were not addressed. I am convinced that there are several issues that the government has deliberately kept quiet about, and perhaps even lied about. I personally, have viewed most of the popular videos, and "reports" that are out there on the net, and I have to say that despite the unanswered questions, I just don't think that there was government involvement in 9/11. Here's why:

    I think that we often give government bureaucracies way too much credit than they deserve. We have to remember that the CIA, NSA, and the Pentagon are huge bureaucracies. Bureaucracies by their very nature are incompetent, and inefficient. It was noted that what lead to the Pearl Harbor attacks was a climate of denial, ineptitude, and just plain bad intel. I have heard from retired intelligence officers (radio interviews) that there has always been bitterness and petty rivalries between the agencies of the FBI and the CIA. The notion that they would cooperate in such a massive operation without some maverick leaking something to the press is extremely far-fetched

    Here's a question: if the U.S. government was unable to keep their secret wire tap program (NSA program) from being leaked to the New York Times and Washington Post, how on earth would a massive operation like 9/11 be kept secret without someone leaking at least some portions of the operation?

    If the U.S. government was unable to keep the Abu Garab prison scandal a secret, how would they be able to keep an operation that spans across several government agencies a secret?

    If the government can't prevent the details of a Senate committee's business from being leaked to the media, how would the government prevent information being leaked by a collection of hundreds of operatives working in competing agencies like the FBI, CIA, Pentagon, FAA, NYPD, and FDNY?

    As far as the failure to promptly scramble aircraft; we must realize that their was pandemonium at the FAA on the morning of 9/11. The FAA as a bureaucracy, just wasn't able to adequately communicate back and forth with the Defense Dept, because they were not even sure for a while that the wayward aircraft had even been hijacked. I think that we must factor in how massive bureaucracies are not able to respond to sudden crisis of this magnitude. Again, I admit that there are indeed some unanswered questions as to why the Pentagon was able to be hit. But, just because a question is unanswered; doesn't mean that a certain theoretical answer must be correct.

    As far as the towers collapsing; I have some possible ideas. I realize that several engineers have said that the steel should not have melted. That the steel structure was designed to withstand that impact and a temperature of some 2000 degrees. Has it ever occurred to anyone that the actual structure was never built to specs? What I mean is, isn't it possible that the contractors who built the twin towers half-assed or cut corners to save costs? I remember that there have been various contractors who have been prosecuted for lying about design specifications in the past. As it turned out, the actual constructions did not match the design specifications. Corners were cut to save money, and was made possible by paying off inspectors. The buildings were not as safe as the builders said they were.

    I'm wondering if this is what happened in the construction of the twin towers. It could be possible that it was covered up by the Federal government in an effort to prevent the City of New York from being bankrupted by lawsuits from families of victims; and from the companies that actually inhabited the buildings. Again, I admit that there are several unanswered questions. But to go from these unanswered questions to concluding that the government had a hand in the operation is a huge leap of faith.

    The idea of 19 men hijacking 4 aircraft is not far-fetched to me. Airplanes had been hijacked by Arab knuckleheads on numerous occasions in the past. The belief as to how to deal with them was always "do what they tell you, and you'll be okay". That is the paradigm that Americans were operating under prior to 9/11.

    I know that some will argue that there is a massive global shadow government operating under the direction of the Illuninati and the Bildabergs that carried this out. Well, that is venturing into the grandiose, unprovable ideas of alien abductions, and bigfoot sightings, of which I won't even bother to go into.

    I am not one who naively believes that the U.S. government is a saint. I do realize many of it's faults and past sins. And, I am disturbed by the amount of influence that the military industrial complex is having in Washington. But, I am not prepared to attempt to answer my own unanswered questions with such a grand exercise in speculation. Many of the people who disagree with me will say that I am "naive", "brainwashed by the American media", and "sticking my head in the sand". That's okay. I respect our differing opinions.

    I like to refer to the scientific principle that says that when two separate competing hypothesis are possible, the simpler one is usually always the correct one. Was the United States government able to design, fund, and implement a massive operation involving several federal, state, and local agencies consisting of hundreds of operatives, bribed officials, and bureaucrats who were willing to commit treason without any information being leaked beforehand? Or, were the American people failed by incompetent policies, ineffective agencies, inept bureaucrats, and bad intelligence which was revealed to be the county's Achilles Heel?

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    Holy standards of evidence batman, is this not dead yet?

    It's the JFK thing again. For decades we all listened, with varying degrees of belief, to theories of multiple gunmen, accepting seeming inconsistencies in the offical story as evidence for something other than the official story being true.

    If you create a 3D model of the Plaza where it happened using all available footage and photos, and run the event again, the ballistics fit the sole gunman theory PERFECTLY. I am sure there are still people who believe in multiple gunmen, but they have been proved as definatively wrong as they can be.

    Now with 9/11, the most recorded disaster of all-time (especially compared to the sparse documentary footage of JFK's death), we still have varying groups of nay-sayers.

    I love the way a document claiming at least 5 provably false claims (the sad, whacked-out, credulous belief in demolition, the willful misrepresentation of the air-defence situation, and the unfounded claims regarding the aftermath of the collapse) is presented as something worthy of interest; as much of the rest is unfounded speculation, misrepresentation, synchronicity, or facts which mean nothing with regard to a conspiracy being given a spin to make them look suspicious; the only thing this document proves is something about the psychological profile of the author/s.

    I don't have the patience to regurgitate all this again in long posts covering all aspects and I also don't have the time, but am happy to address single issues people think support a conspiracy theory regarding the actual collapse and what-hit-what. They are ALL bullshit, and I'm happy to demonstrate it, but one by one. As to whether it was a government plan, or extra-government plan, not an al Qaeda operation, or whether having happened the government took advantage of the situation... well, the first two I don't know, but I am certain they took advantage of it happening.

    skyking

    Those of you that posted negative comments I have one and only one question how did tower seven collapse when no planes hit it and buildings closer to the Twin Towers did not collapse?????????????????????????????????????

    What the conspiracist sites don't tell you is that Building 7 was so badly damaged it set off movement sensors placed by NYFD nearly an hour before it collapsed. They placed these sensors BECAUSE OF THE EXTENT OF DAMAGE to Building 7, and when they went off withdrew the crews they had in there. This totally fits in with it getting collatoral damage from the main impacts and collapsing due to slow burning fires destroying its core, and totally does not fit in with demolition, as demolition is not a slow progressive event taking nearly an hour. In other words, the official story completely explains how it collapsed, any conspiracy theory claiming otherwise has to miss out facts to be credible, and once you put those facts in, is no longer credible.

    sammielee

    It was imploded on purpose and thats confirmed by the owner

    Please provide the evidence of this; don't bother, there is none, you've just been suckered.

  • sammielee24
    sammielee24
    Please provide the evidence of this; don't bother, there is none, you've just been suckered.

    Abaddon - suckered? Don't think so. I at least took the time to watch the video. The owner of the complex, including the tower that WAS NOT hit and WAS NOT directly beside the other towers, said in an interview himself that tower 7 was being brought down. HE said it in an interview and if that isn't proof then you have redefined the word for your own purposes. Can't get much clearer than the guy who owns it telling you it was demolished as proof.

    There were 2 buildings beside the twins that had contact with debris but they were NOT taken down. Later, some other buildings were but number 7 was taken down the same day as the others were hit. Why would that be? There was no structural damage to it, it was one of the farthest away, it was structurally strong because it housed some government offices, yet it was demolished the same day.

    Listen to the video. Listen to the commentators, firefighters and police themselves (people who handle these situations more than most of us) describe bomb blasts coming from the inside of the building and the top of the building. If the fire was so incredibly hot that it burned the steel and collapsed the buildings that fast, then why weren't people burned up just as fast?

    I don't necessarily believe the government did anything to it's own people but I'm not about to believe they aren't hiding something either. Tower 7 held government offices including CIA and Secret Services. It was taken down for no apparent reason the same day. How do you know what was in those offices that might have led to a lot of questions if it wasn't completely destroyed? Head of security for the complex was one of the Bush brothers. The only buildings that went down were all owned by the same guy and insured for 7 billion dollars. Why only his buildings and none around him?

    My attention is focused on the 3rd tower - the other 2 being hit we could all see. The 3rd one leaves too many questions as to why and how fast it was demolished. sammieswife.

  • sammielee24
    sammielee24
    BECAUSE OF THE EXTENT OF DAMAGE to Building 7, and when they went off withdrew the crews they had in there. This totally fits in with it getting collatoral damage from the main impacts and collapsing due to slow burning fires destroying its core, and totally does not fit in with demolition, as demolition is not a slow progressive event taking nearly an hour. In other

    Watch the owner on the PBS interview. He makes it pretty clear when he says 'they' are going to pull it down. The video shows the tower going down - it wasn't slow. Funny thing - the owner of the building makes a very definite statement that his building is being demolished and then basically exits from the picture, the story changes and now everyone is supposed to believe the new story. sammieswife.

  • skyking
    skyking

    Look at the below BBC New Report that Seven of the Nine Hijacker are still alive and had nothing to do with 911. Who is lying to us.

    Seven Of Nineteen 911 Hijack 'Suspects' Alive & Well

  • skyking
    skyking

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1559151.stm


    the Link did not work above now try. Seven of the Hijacker are still alive and had nothing to do with 911
    Here is another link

    http://www.the7thfire.com/Politics%20and%20History/9-11/9-11_hijackers_still_alive.htm

  • XJW4EVR
    XJW4EVR

    Spetember 5 and the conspiracy cooks are out in force.

    How many times must you people be refuted?

    Two interesting articles:

    http://p2t.blogspot.com/2006/04/call-charlie-sheen-insane-but-part-1.html

    http://p2t.blogspot.com/2006/04/call-charlie-sheen-insane-but-part-2.html

    Interesting to say the least. Come on conspiracy guys & gals. Read this and refute it. If you dare read it at all.

  • Arthur
    Arthur

    EXJW4EVR

    Those are some excellent links. Thanks for posting those.

  • mkr32208
    mkr32208

    NO the owner DID NOT say they were going to knock the building down! He said we decided to "pull it" that means that they decided the building was to damaged to risk firefighters lives and pulled the firefighters out! The building then burned with no fire suppression for a while then fell! The LYING conspiracy theorist say "well in demolition lingo pull it means..." Who the f*ck cares what it means in demolition lingo! The man who said it was not a demolition engineer! He WOULND'T KNOW the lingo! He was just using an expression that he thought covered the situation and intended it as such! This is crazy, there is NOTHING that anyone could say or do that would convince these people that they were wrong...

    I was very into this conspiracy theory at first until I started doing some research! Just like I was very into JWism once! Stop swallowing this crap whole! It's BUNK!

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