Have We Been Mislead About 9/11? Revisited

by JamesThomas 144 Replies latest members politics

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    sammielee

    I do believe you refering to the infamous bit of conspiracist dishonesty where Larry's statement taht they are going to "pull it". I have yet to find anyone other than a 911 Conspiracist saying 'pull' is a demolition industry term, but regardless of their unfounded claims it is obvious from the context and reference to the loss of life that had already occured he's talking about them pulling the firecrews from WTC7. As I've alreadt stated, despite the lies by conspiracists that the builing was essentially undamaged, it was damaged enough to have the NYPD fit motion sesors to it and then evacuate the crews when the sensors showed the building was going to collapse. They showed shifts in its structure c. 1 hour before collapse; these shifts in its structure are explicable by slow weakening, wharping and internal settling up to the point there was a major structural failure that propogated rapidly to cause a global collapse.

    As I say, you were suckered.

    Listen to the video. Listen to the commentators, firefighters and police themselves (people who handle these situations more than most of us) describe bomb blasts coming from the inside of the building and the top of the building.

    Actually you will hear people saying how the building collapsing SOUNDS LIKE explosions. ANd indeed, a floor hitting another floor makes a big bang. A perimeter coloum collapsing makes a big bang. You are just taking selective quotes taken by dishonet or psychologically disturbed people to make it sound like something happened when it did't.

    James Thomas

    That's why I am an advocate for thorough investigations.

    Well, you would look more credible if you restricted yourself to those who investigate the truely open issues rather than spreading erroneous nonsense about the nature of the collapse or physics of the event. Whereas the first issue arguably bears examination, the second just marks the card of those pushing it as a nut job. I remember from last time you pushed this one that you accepted a picture of glowing metal being taken from the ground with no provenance whatsoever as proof of molten metal at Ground Zero; the photo could be from anywhere or anywhen! In this thread you post a picture showing a 45 degree cut, but the photo has no provenance; was it taken during the clear-up phase when standing debris was demolished? If so, nothing to explain away. Your standards of evidence are too low man.

    skyking

    Yes, every conspiracist knows some form of expert... convenient. Funny, they estimate dozens of calls are made from the air every single day, despite the ban, and equally funny that the FAA have been discussing lifting the ban on cell-phone use in flight. We must tell those people making calls and those who wish to lift the ban cell phone use in flight is impossible.

    If the fire was so incredibly hot that it burned the steel

    It didn't burn steel; more misinformation.

    sunny

    That's the guy (Steven Jones) that JamesThomas has pushed in the past.

    From the linked article;

    Professor Jones said it was impossible for the twin towers to have collapsed in the way they did from the collision of two aeroplanes.

    Funny, just like many of those disputing evolution are not biologists or scientists with relevent knowledge, many of those saying the towers could not have fallen from aircraft impact are not architects or structural engineers. Steven Jones is NOT a structural engineer, architect, or experienced with disatser analysis; he also believes all sorts of silly Mormon nonsesnse, a clear warning sign. Just as those wanting to believe in Creation or ID will accept hearing what they want to hear from non-credible sources, so too will those wishing to believe Conspiracist nonsense believe what they want to hear when it comes from non-credible sources.

    He maintains jet fuel does not burn at temperatures high enough to melt steel beams

    But no one says the towers collapsed because the beams melted; he's being deceptive by arguing against something that no credible source says happened.

    and claims horizontal puffs of smoke seen during the collapse of the towers are indicative of controlled explosions used to bring down the towers.

    Rather than dust being blown out from between pancaking floors; see, he's providing a complex explanation when the simple one fits what everyone say happen, a clear sign of dodgy thinking processes.

  • Arthur
    Arthur
    I have a thread running right now about cell phones but is not getting any traffic so maybe some of the individuals here can answer my question like Arthur, Abaddon, XJW4EVR,

    Well, yes, common sense does tell us that cell phones cannot be used in midair. However, the passengers did not use cell phones. They used the "Sky-Fones" that are mounted on the backs of most of the seats that can be made at any time during the flight.

    As I stated in my previous post, I do not deny that we have not been told about everything regarding 9/11. I also stated that I do not deny that there are many unanswered questions and anomalies. Just because I do not have all of the answers, doesn't mean that I have to just accept an arbitrary theory.

    Just because I am willing to admit that there are anolmalies and unanwered quesitions, doesn't mean that I have to make the huge leap of believing that there was a massive governmental plot. As in the case of the JFK assasination; just because there are some strange unanswered questions in that case, does not mean that I must believe that J.Edgar Hoover, the Secret Service, and the CIA was behind it.

    I am not hostile to anyone who does believe in the 9/11 conspiracy theories. I just respectfully disagree with your opinions. Certainly those who claim to have an open mind and intellectual honesty should be willing to respect the fact that not everyone is willing to jump onto a conspiratorial band wagon based upon scattered and dubious evidence.

    If anyone wants to criticize me for this by saying that I'm "blind", "in denial", or "sticking my head in the sand", that's okay. I already heard all of that when I left the JW religion.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    I mentioned this on an earlier thread, but there is video of a firefighter filmed in the afternoon of 9/11, and you can see Building 7 behind him, and he says that they cannot fight the fire in that building because it has begun to lean to one side and there's nothing they can do to stop it...that it was going to fall over. This is on the Camera Planet video, and I have never seen this mentioned on ANY of the conspiracy websites.

  • Jourles
    Jourles
    the FAA have been discussing lifting the ban on cell-phone use in flight. We must tell those people making calls and those who wish to lift the ban cell phone use in flight is impossible.

    Just so everyone is clear on this, the FAA isn't referring to allowing people to whip out their cell phones and make calls without the help of a "repeater" device that would need to be installed in airplanes. New telecommunications equipment would have to be installed in a plane for you to make an in-flight call from your personal cell phone.

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    Actually, pico-cells are not needed;

    U.S. mobile carrier Sprint PCS is in favor of loosening the rules of on-board cellular communication because "there is no conclusive evidence of interference in the air or on the ground," Oliver Valente, the firm's Chief Technology Officer, told the New York Times.

    ...

    The U.S. Federal Communications Commission banned the use of wireless devices not over concerns about airplane safety but rather the potential interference for ground-based communication networks, the New York Times reported.

    Experts say cell phones used at high altitudes may contact a variety of base stations, preventing customers within the base station range from using the same frequency.

    Though mobile phones are not designed for air-to-ground communication, a call can get through if a direct line to a cell tower is available.

    http://edition.cnn.com/2001/BUSINESS/asia/09/17/hk.airbornecellular/

    Pico cells avoid the interference mentioned above and open up revenue generation through roaming fees for airlines;

    http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20060728/094246.shtml

    The psychology of your classic Conspiracist is quite sad - check out http://www.physics911.net/cellphoneflight93.htm

    Look at how seat-back airfones, a simple explanation, are totally ignored as a way of making the calls made by passengers on 9/11. He mentions them at the start;

    Any analysis of the cellphone and "airfone" calls from Flight 93 must begin with some basic, high-altitude cellphone facts.

    Having put in there ARE such a thing as airfones, he then goes onto discuss how hard it is to make a cell call from a plane at altitude - when it isn't neccesary for it to even be possible to make a cell call from altititude to make those calls as airfones WERE present. See how he slips up in his story by actually specifying airfones were used;

    A man claiming to be Todd Beamer on a United Airlines airfone had some trouble getting through to anyone but the Verizon customer service center, where the operator relayed the call to Verizon supervisor, Lisa Jefferson at 9:45 am. (Verizon is a large communications company that has the contract for airfones on United airlines equipment.)
    She asked Jack to pass along her love for everyone, then passed the airfone to her seat-mate.

    Why do they make such a big deal about cell phones when the actual stories make it clear some (if not the majority) of calls were made on airfones? Because such stuning misdirection is neccesary to retain a belief they need for internal reasons.

    Once again we have a Conspiracist who knows an expert, what a surprise!

    In the opinion of a colleague of mine who has worked in the cellphone industry...

    ... sniff, sniff...

    Then he misrepresents cellphone technology;

    An aircraft traveling at this speed would not be over the cellsite long enough to complete the electronic "handshake" (which takes several seconds to complete) before arriving over the next cellsite, when the call has to be handed off from the first cellsite to the next one. This also takes a few seconds, the result being, in the optimal case, a series of broken transmissions that must end, sooner or later, in failure.

    A plane at 500mph would have around 30 seconds in a cell. This is PLENTY of time for the handover between cells, as a cell monitors for signals with increasing strength coming towards it and organises a handoff from the cell the phone is leaving through a system called MTSO. It's not a process that waits until the cell boundry, it's predicitve, and signal strengths are measured thousands of times a second.

    He misrepresents another Conspiracist!!;

    As I have pointed out elsewhere, cellphone calls from commercial aircraft much over 8000 feet are essentially impossible, while those below 8000 feet are highly unlikely down to about 2000, where they become merely unlikely. (Dewdney 2003)

    We go to Dewdney's report and find that 13% of calls made at 8000 feet go through. In the mind of the conspiracist 13% sucess indicates impossibility!!

    But just read the linked article, it's offensive;

    A man claiming to be

    ... is a repeated refrain; has he contacted ANY relative and asked them whether they doubted the identity of the caller? No, he has not, it's just he needs to make this ASSUMPTION to retain his belief; a clear identifying sign in many religionists and Conspiracists.

    This assumption his presuppostion of conspiracy carries makes him say this;

    Here, the caller seems to be temporizing. Not only are hijackings of commercial (i. e., cargo) aircraft extremely rare events, the caller's apparent surprise contradicts the implication of Call B (made earlier) that the other attacks were already general knowledge among the passengers of Flight 93.

    What was the content of this call?;

    Just before 9:30 am, a man claiming to be Jeremy Glick called Lyz Glick, who was visiting in-laws in the Catskills of New York state. The phone was answered by Glick's mother-in-law, JoAnne Makely:

    JoAnne: "Jeremy. Thank God. We're so worried."

    Caller: "It's bad news. Is Liz there?"

    The caller went on to describe Arabic-looking hijackers wearing red headbands and carrying knives. One had told the passengers he had a bomb. The caller asked if it was true that planes had been crashed into the World Trade Center. She confirmed this. The caller mentioned that another passenger had heard the news on his/her cell phone

    At no point does anyone say anything about 'general knowledge', just 'another passenger'. The Conspiracist inflates this to 'general knowledge' as that means he can build a more convincing case. He fills in the blanks he neds to make his belief more certain. Someone with a psychological issue like that, well, I'm not a professional, I can't help them.

    However, out-and-out fabrication, misdirection, misrepresentation and warped thinking don't make a very convoncing case if you have the patience to weed through them and see them for what they are. This is not rocket science people, this is dip-sticks believing stuff that makes them feel special.

  • Jourles
    Jourles

    Actually, pico-cells are not needed;

    U.S. mobile carrier Sprint PCS is in favor of loosening the rules of on-board cellular communication because "there is no conclusive evidence of interference in the air or on the ground," Oliver Valente, the firm's Chief Technology Officer, told the New York Times.

    ...

    The U.S. Federal Communications Commission banned the use of wireless devices not over concerns about airplane safety but rather the potential interference for ground-based communication networks, the New York Times reported.

    Experts say cell phones used at high altitudes may contact a variety of base stations, preventing customers within the base station range from using the same frequency.

    Though mobile phones are not designed for air-to-ground communication, a call can get through if a direct line to a cell tower is available.

    Wrong. Repeaters using a sat uplink or a specific ground based network are needed for continuous in-flight communication via your personal cell phone. Verizon Wireless uses a ground based network for its in-flight phone service. We have roughly 130 sites which are connected to 3 mtso's which only pass airline traffic. The Sprint CTO is correct in saying that interference wouldn't exist on the ground. The "experts" cited in the above article do not know what they are talking about, or the journalist wrote the article incorrectly. In a CDMA network(which is what Sprint and Verizon both use), everyone shares the same "channel" or frequency. It is the coding scheme which separates the callers from interfering with each other. The quote - "...preventing customers within the base station range from using the same frequency" is complete and utter B.S.

    A plane at 500mph would have around 30 seconds in a cell. This is PLENTY of time for the handover between cells, as a cell monitors for signals with increasing strength coming towards it and organises a handoff from the cell the phone is leaving through a system called MTSO. It's not a process that waits until the cell boundry, it's predicitve, and signal strengths are measured thousands of times a second.

    I have to disagree with your "30 seconds in a cell" theory. The only way this would work is if the plane was a couple hundred feet off the ground. Put the plane several thousand feet above the earth, how does the coverage from the cell work now? As I've already pointed out on the other thread, this just isn't possible. Cellular systems utilize high gain antennas which are vertically polarized, facing the horizon or towards the ground. Spurious reflections off of buildings, mountains, or other objects can cause the celluar base station signal to travel into the sky. This is how you might be able to establish an extremely short call at a very low altitude.

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    Wrong. Repeaters using a sat uplink or a specific ground based network are needed for continuous in-flight communication via your personal cell phone.

    Define continuous! Even the tests made by Conspiracists show that conversations are possible - and many of the reported conversations were short. So, the claims that such calls were impossible by cell phone are quite simply false.

    Verizon Wireless uses a ground based network for its in-flight phone service.

    Which was available on those planes. This shows any claim that calls were impossible from the planes is quite simply false.

    We have roughly 130 sites which are connected to 3 mtso's which only pass airline traffic. The Sprint CTO is correct in saying that interference wouldn't exist on the ground. The "experts" cited in the above article do not know what they are talking about, or the journalist wrote the article incorrectly. In a CDMA network(which is what Sprint and Verizon both use), everyone shares the same "channel" or frequency. It is the coding scheme which separates the callers from interfering with each other. The quote - "...preventing customers within the base station range from using the same frequency" is complete and utter B.S.

    You are correct with regard to CDMA (http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/cell-phone1.htm) but assume the current technology is what was in place in 200. However, the point is moot, as calling from altitude using cell phone IS possible, even for Conspiracists trying to show it isn't, and there were airfones available.

    A plane at 500mph would have around 30 seconds in a cell. This is PLENTY of time for the handover between cells, as a cell monitors for signals with increasing strength coming towards it and organises a handoff from the cell the phone is leaving through a system called MTSO. It's not a process that waits until the cell boundry, it's predicitve, and signal strengths are measured thousands of times a second.

    I have to disagree with your "30 seconds in a cell" theory. The only way this would work is if the plane was a couple hundred feet off the ground. Put the plane several thousand feet above the earth, how does the coverage from the cell work now? As I've already pointed out on the other thread, this just isn't possible. Cellular systems utilize high gain antennas which are vertically polarized, facing the horizon or towards the ground. Spurious reflections off of buildings, mountains, or other objects can cause the celluar base station signal to travel into the sky. This is how you might be able to establish an extremely short call at a very low altitude.

    Jourles, calls have been made from 8,000 ft by Conspiracists that lasted longer than seconds. There were airfones on the planes.

    To use the ít's impossible to make those calls from planes" Conspiracist claim is to ignore reality, as I have shown that such calls WERE possible. You refuse to use a simple thinking tool like Occams Razor. Why is it so important to you that there was a Conspiracy, so important you ignore facts insisting something which obviously WAS possible (as demonstrated by Conspiracists) wasn't?

    Will you ignore this as well?;

    http://news.cnet.co.uk/mobiles/0,39029678,49254848,00.htm

    A study has shown between one and four calls are made on each commercial flight. Golly, someone should tell people to stop doing things that are impossible!

  • Jourles
    Jourles

    I think I need to set something straight right off the bat here. I am not in any way endorsing or refuting this conspiracy claim(show me my own comments where I claim otherwise). I am simply commenting on how the cellular network functions. That is all. Otherwise...

    Which was available on those planes. This shows any claim that calls were impossible from the planes is quite simply false.

    You misunderstand the tech. The Air Phone service that Verizon uses is indeed ground based. The only problem though is that cell phones do not work on this particular air-to-ground based network. A typical cell phone can operate in the 824-848MHz(tx) and 869-893MHz(rx) ranges, including the PCS bands, depending on your carrier. The VZW Air Phone service utilizes 840MHz-851MHz(tx) and 894MHz-896MHz(rx) to communicate back and forth from the airplane to the ground. Your personal cell phone CANNOT operate over these frequencies. So any claims from someone that says that their personal cell phone works over this air-to-ground network is lying. Only the embedded phones in the aircraft can place and receive calls on this network.

    You are correct with regard to CDMA ;( http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/cell-phone1.htm) but assume ;the current technology is what was in place in 200. However, the point is moot, as calling from altitude using cell phone IS possible, even for Conspiracists trying to show it isn't, and there were airfones available.

    Well thank you for telling me I was correct regarding CDMA. Luckily, I do not have to search the web to explain how these networks operate. I've been doing this for quite a while now and I better know it like the back of my hand. I did want to mention that the only reason why the FCC put the ban into effect in the first place was because of the ANALOG technology at the time(back in '91). Frequency reuse was a very important engineering factor back then. You were only limited to 21 analog channels at a cell(I should say - in a sector). And yes, interference could be easily produced. I used to be able to put an analog Motorola phone into test mode and make it transmit on the same channel as our setup radios. This would cause outlying mobiles to receive a fast busy when attempting to place a call. Fun stuff!

    calls have been made from 8,000 ft by Conspiracists that lasted longer than seconds.

    I had to look back at that site, but I found no call detail regarding the length of their calls. Besides, we should be comparing apples to apples and not apples to watermelon. They said they were using a fiberglass/carbon fiber aircraft? Well, yeah. That is totally different than a jumbo jet wrapped in aluminum traveling 500mph. I'll definitely give them the few extra thousand feet for placing a call! But it still does not answer my original question - Were they able to handoff without any problems? No mention at all. They should have borrowed a tech from the cell companies to trace their calls.

    Will you ignore this as well?

    Despite the ban on mobile calls on airplanes, air travellers have a hard time keeping their hands off their mobiles and often make calls during critical stages of the flight such as final approach, according to a US research team from Carnegie Mellon University.

    As part of the study, released on Monday, the research team filled their hand luggage with a broadband antenna and spectrum analyser and boarded random planes crossing the Northeast United States. Picking up signals from phone calls onboard, they found that an average of one to four calls are made on every US commercial flight.

    This doesn't prove much at all. Even the article states plainly, travellers "often make calls during critical stages of the flight such as final approach." And let me guess the other critical stage....Takeoff? Well yeah. You're near the ground! I would like to know what exactly they were looking at as far as frequency usage goes. Were they able to distinguish between analog, cdma, tdma, iden, or gsm signals? I've done this experiment in the past, but not in a plane. CDMA phones exhibit nothing of interest on a spec an(due to their spread spectrum design). The transmitted spurts from a cdma phone faintly rise above the noise floor - and this is with an antenna next to the phone! Move the phone away and you have no idea a cdma phone is nearby. An analog phone transmits constantly. It is extremely easy to pinpoint the location of an analog phone. TDMA phones are bursty and are somewhat easy to find too(GSM is loosely based on tdma). The problem with ALL of these phones(with the exception of analog), is that once they are registered on a network, they sit there idle and "sniff" the air. Only once in a while do they wake up and transmit to the network that they are still around and ready to receive a call. But once the phones see that they are out of range(like on a plane up in the air), they are constantly searching and transmitting for a network to latch onto. These "spikes" recorded on a spec an could simply be the phones searching for a network, not necessarily "call attempts." I would like to see this study - got a link?

  • XJW4EVR
    XJW4EVR


    I do buy into one conspiracy about 9/11. It is that the Clinton administration had the opportunity to nab Osama Bin-Laden and chose not to to. They also had the opportunity to kill him, and again decided not to. I wonder if these facts being exposed on the ABC special on Sunday & Monday are what has Bill Clinton so angry?

    http://www.upi.com/SecurityTerrorism/view.php?StoryID=20060905-111623-5746r

  • Jourles
    Jourles

    Here it is:

    http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/mar06/3069

    But then again, it doesn't speak about high-altitude call attempts. It pretty much addresses calls made at takeoff and landing and how those calls could affect GPS systems(an entirely different thread). A few quotes:

    For the cellular and PCS frequency bands, given the monitoring parameters we selected, we couldn't conclusively identify the technologies underlying the signals we detected.

    I figured they would run into that problem.

    We could easily identify CDMA cellphone signals in the frequency spectrum analysis by their correlation to prescribed CDMA channels, their relatively wide bandwidth (1.23 MHz), and a distinctive flat top. In other words, it is almost impossible to miss the "Bart Simpson hairdo" profile of a CDMA call. It was harder to identify other cellphone signals unambiguously, such as TDMA or those of older analog phones.

    which goes along with -

    We were able to clearly identify some cellphone signals that originated from on board the aircraft [again, see chart, "Cellular Stands Out"]. Ours was a conservative estimate, since a call made at the other end of the cabin from the instrumentation would be below the threshold we could observe.

    The CDMA call had to be near the antenna they were using. Otherwise, its low power spread spectrum signal is nearly impossible to distinguish. Analog phones are all but extinct these days. And TDMA and GSM are bursty in their transmissions. They look like thin spikes poking up every half second or so while you are talking(on a spec an, they visibly transmit less when you are listening).

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