by thirdwitness 1380 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
AS
Clearly, having the means or power to do something does not mean one has authority. Yet having authority, clearly does not mean one has to use it. But that is not conslusive proof that Jesus reign began in the first century. COJ presents his considerable arguments in his book (I did not reject them), the wts presents its line of reasoning in the Rev book.
Rev12 :10 seems to be refering to a future event.
What I would like to know is how did they get to 607BCE in the first place
Did they follow events, say, from Jesus backward through the bible or alike? I know that Catholic church has its own cronology but I never recall seeing 607BCE, how did WTBS come to their interpretation of bible chronolgy???
I would be much obliged if someone would care to answer.
AS
I agree that the Bible says that God is the universal sovereign. I also agree that one having authority does not need to exercise it to have it. But that does not mean that God has begun ruling as king just because he has all authority. According to the Bible that is a future event. So again although God has all authority whether he wishes to use it or not has nothing to do with beginning to rule as king. The same can be said about Jesus.
Jonestown - A brotherhood
The Watchtower Cult IS Jonestown without the Kool-Aid!
Fisherman,
But that is not conslusive proof that Jesus reign began in the first century.
According to Jehovah's Witnesses Jesus began to reign in 1914. But not as king over everyone, only over willing subjects. He began ruling in the midst of his enemies, in the midst of rival rulerships.
In other words, Jehovah's Witnesses identify various points at which the dominion is expanded as authority is exercised in an increasing scope. They are correct in their assessment that this is how the authority is exercised. They are incorrect about the timing they place on it.
A high priest according to the manner of Melchizedek:
Insight On the Scriptures Volume II, p. 366 Melchizedek Christ’s Priesthood Typified. In a notable Messianic prophecy the sworn oath of Jehovah to David’s “Lord” is: “You are a priest to time indefinite according to the manner of Melchizedek!” (Ps 110:1, 4) This inspired psalm gave the Hebrews reason to regard the promised Messiah as the one in whom the office of priest and king would be combined. The apostle Paul, in the letter to the Hebrews, removed any doubt about the identity of the one foretold, speaking of “Jesus, who has become a high priest according to the manner of Melchizedek forever.”—Heb 6:20; 5:10; see COVENANT .
"Jesus, who has become a high priest according to the manner of Melchizedek forever." (Hebrews 6:20; Hebrews 5-7)
The entire chapters 5 through 7 have one argument, Jesus IS the king and high priest according to the manner of Melchizedek. Jesus IS the fulfillment of Psalm 110:1, 4.
If I first describe my father as one "who has become" a fireman, is my father currently a fireman? What if I later say that he wanted to be a fireman ever since he first visited a fire station as a child, "from that time forward, awaiting until" he became a fireman? Does that mean he is not now a fireman?
No, he is a fireman. The "awaiting until" applies to the period during which he was not, but does not necessarily mean he is not a fireman currently. Keep in mind that Melchizedek was both king and high priest. Then read Hebrews 5-7 and come back to let me know whether Jesus was King in the First Century. I know it is going to be tough to say goodbye to a pet doctrine, but the lack of conclusive proof is on the part of those who say Jesus began to rule in 1914. Such people make liars of Paul and Jesus.
Respectfully,
AuldSoul
Fisherman,
The fact is, in the letters to the Philippians, Corinthians, Ephesians, and Hebrews there are plain statements that Jesus received his authority. The disciples were claiming to people that the resurrected Jesus was a king. Hebrews 6:20 plainly states that Jesus had become a high priest like Melchizedek (king/priest) in the past tense. Revelation 1:5 shows John announcing Jesus to the seven congregations as "The Ruler over the kings of the earth" among other titles.
Fisherman, I have not read any of Carl's books yet. My reasoning on these things comes from my study of the Bible, not from what someone else has had to say.
But that is not conslusive proof that Jesus reign began in the first century.
True. And neither is having Scriptures that directly state that he began his reign in the First Century considered "conclusive proof". Unless you credit some evidenciary value to the Scriptures, that is. In which case, there is conclusive proof. Quite a lot of it, in fact.
Respectfully,
AuldSoul
In view of private emails I've received, I want to clarify that saki2fifty's apology above is not for his current obscene action but for an earlier indiscretion. I will no longer participate in a thread that he has defiled by disregarding the sensibilities of all the decent people in this forum. I do not understand why such vulgarity is permitted.
Frank
I think some may have missed this. Surely you will not just outrightly deny the straightforward scriptures that tell us that after Jesus went to heaven from then on he was awaiting until his enemies should be placed as a stool for his feet. If you deny this scripture and the others below you are just like Trinitarians denying the obvious scriptures that disprove your beliefs. You would rather deny scripture than face up to the facts that JWs are right .
When did God make his enemies a stool for his feet? Was it when he sat down at the right hand of God in 33CE after going to heaven?
Paul gives the answer: Heb 10:12 But this [man] offered one sacrifice for sins perpetually and sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from then on awaiting until his enemies should be placed as a stool for his feet.
I was unable to find even one translation that supported the view of Frank or Auldsoul that the waiting was in the past.Other translations:
There are many more.
Now, opposers of JWs, you have a problem. Hebrews was written in 61CE almost 30 years after Jesus went to heaven. Jesus sat down at the right hand of God after going to heaven in 33CE but he still had to wait until his enemies should be placed as a stool for his feet. When did that happen? It was after 61CE for sure for Paul said he was still waiting.
Here is another problem you have. Revelation was written in 96CE. Some, like Auldsoul, say a little before that. But at any rate it was written long after Jesus went to heaven in 33CE. Revelation was given to John "to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place." So it was about future events that would take place long after 33CE.
Now go to Revelation 11:15-17:
15 And the seventh angel blew his trumpet. And loud voices occurred in heaven, saying: “The kingdom of the world did become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king forever and ever.”
16 And the twenty-four elders who were seated before God upon their thrones fell upon their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying: “We thank you, Jehovah God, the Almighty, the One who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and begun ruling as king.
Huh oh. Another big problem for opposers of JWs. How can this be? How is it that Jehovah begans ruling as king sometime after 33CE, even sometime after 61CE, even sometime after 96CE? What about that argument that Jehovah has always been king and could never begin to rule as king at some later point in time? What about that argument that Jesus was given 'all authority' therefore he could not have begun to rule at a later date after 33CE? Poof! It just went up in smoke.
The fact is that all of Revelation takes place in the Lord's day for John said, " 10 By inspiration I came to be in the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a strong voice like that of a trumpet, 11 saying: “What you see write..."
So now it becomes fact that Jehovah began to rule thru Christ as His King in the Lord's day sometime after his going to heaven in 33CE. The question then becomes when is the Lord's day? And this question the Bible answers in Matthew 24 when Jesus answered, "What will be the sign of your parousia and the conclusion of the system of things?" Additionally the tree dream pinpoints the time when Jehovah would once again began ruling as King as respects his sovereignty towards the earth. All evidence points to 1914.
How can you ignore these clear Bible scriptures and maintain your ridiculous unscriptural philosophies?
I will no longer participate in a thread
Frank your the best part of this thread!
You will be missed~Danny
This thread seems to have turned into an endless rotation of Biblical interpretation, with as many views on the subject as there are people participating.
What does this prove?
Well, it proves that the WTS is merely an interpreter of Biblical prophecies and as such has no ethical right to insist on shunning those whose interpretations differ. This is made an even more a serious act when one takes into account that over the past hundred years or so, the WTS has reinterpreted its own interpretations numerous times, often dramatcially changing their content and meaning.
ThirdWitness has ignored all the issues, and numerous questions that bring him theological pain. He has proved himself to be a theological child, admitting that he was unaware if the Preterist and Patial Preterist viewpoint of the very scriptures that he seeks to establish as 'truth', a viewpoint that directly relates and answers the conundrum that he seeks to preach about.
I believe that ThirdWitness has ignored every single question that I have asked him over the past few weeks, excepting two. One admitting his theological ignorance as noted above, the other admitting that he was not one person, but working as a team. As all the questions that I asked were on-topic, and very much undermined his preaching, readers can only assume that he and his team have been incapable of answering them.
As a parting shot, I will ask one final question, which will probably be ignored :
Can you provide a list of prophetic interpretations of the Bible, unique to the WTS, that have actually come true the past sixty years?
HS
